In Ear Monitors - help needed...

[EBS_freak]

23 hours ago, intime-nick said:

hehe.....😀

Yeah, OK... Nick's come out the woodwork. So now that the secret is out... this is what we've been working on... Plenty of hours gone into this one!

Features :

Handling : under 200w

OK… so I know this power handling is going to raise a few eyebrows when compared to other boards. A lot of bass transducer boards are a lot higher power than this… however, after much testing of transducers, it’s the sensitivity and the way that the nuances of the frequencies are transported through the board to your feet which is key. So yeah, some of the other bass boards have way higher handling power… but a lot of that is just lost in heating the coils of the transducers and delivering big thuds, which may all be very entertaining at a theme park - but aren’t necessarily the best for a more balanced hifi response. Reproducing the detail in the feel, alongside what you are hearing through your IEMs whilst playing is what is key here.

I can guarantee despite the lower rating of this transducer, on full power, it is still more feedback that you’ll ever need. On full pelt, it will make you sick. In reality, its about finding the sweet spot for your preference. It can make you feel that you are in an earthquake… but in reality, you won’t want it anywhere near that powerful!

Unlike other boards, this is a single transducer design. The first part, the smaller board means that it doesn’t need the force of multiple transducers to get the feedback needed. Secondly, multiple transducers can cause phase cancellation, causing frequency dependent dead or hot spots on the board. Sometimes less is indeed more!

Portable : 60x60cm

Having a big board is all very well and good - but in reality, taking up a load of room at a gig isn’t going to make you very popular. A lot of boards are pretty large and take up a lot of precious real estate at the Dog and Duck. The thinking behind this board, is a portable board of a manageable weight that is going to deliver detailed feedback.

Construction :

The inside construction is under wraps - what I can say though, is that it’s different to the other boards on the market at the moment. Having experimented with lots of designs, the insides of the board deliver a very tight response across all of the lower frequency ranges that we are interested in.

The top is a strong, grippy, long life rubber surface, which  gives plenty of grip and won’t look shabby after just a few gigs! (Oh and it's a bit more sexy than the other offerings, right?)

Amps :

I’ve got a few amps in mind but have successfully tested an amp that works especially well for this application. There's plenty of research I'm still doing around this area, especially in the DSP area.

 

So anyway, let us know what you think... 😛

And who's interested so far...? (and yes, total system cost will be cheaper than the current offerings...)

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

@Gunsfreddy2003- so you remember me saying I was working on something...?

[andysg42]

Nice Russ . Interested ! Put off by the size of the porter & Davies unit and the fairy lights . 

[Bigwan]

Ooh... Very interested!

[MoJoKe]

On 03/02/2019 at 11:40, EBS_freak said:

Can tell you from all my experimentations, the backbeat has it's transducer in the wrong place.

I wasn't that impressed either...

[Gunsfreddy2003]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

@Gunsfreddy2003- so you remember me saying I was working on something...?

OMG - that looks awesome. I thought you were joking!

That size of board would be much more in line with what I need, as you say the P&D is just too damn big for most venues I play sadly.

Really keen to know pricing  and if it would work being powered by the P&D Gigster Head?

[knicknack]

Count me in @EBS_freak! 

[intime-nick]

does it kill rock 'n roll ?  if so, i'll have one 🤣

 

[EBS_freak]

11 minutes ago, intime-nick said:

does it kill rock 'n roll ?  if so, i'll have one 🤣

 

Rock n Roll will never have felt so good.

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, Gunsfreddy2003 said:

OMG - that looks awesome. I thought you were joking!

That size of board would be much more in line with what I need, as you say the P&D is just too damn big for most venues I play sadly.

Really keen to know pricing  and if it would work being powered by the P&D Gigster Head?

Think I answered this from your direct message to me - but for clarification for others, the answers are - too early to tell but (much) cheaper is the aim. And yes, the Gigster Head will work with it, although Im currently looking at being able to use a perfectly matched amp (read with DSP) to the board for a proper end to end solution so that it behaves like I (or at least the majority of people!) think it should! 

[Dood]

4 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Yeah, OK... Nick's come out the woodwork. So now that the secret is out... this is what we've been working on... Plenty of hours gone into this one!

{snip}

 

 

 

 

Oooh! Very interesting indeed! Good on ya! Looks great!

[sunsse]

That looks really cool! I am interested.

[xzodar]

Definitely interested in this. 

Cheers, Pete 

[EBS_freak]

Thanks very much for the support guys - I think the worst nightmare than Nick and I could have had is posting it up and it being met with a lukewarm response!

Guessing inhaling all that wood dust off the router may have been worth it yet!

Edited February 4, 2019 by EBS_freak

[la bam]

Well, I had my first experience of in ears last weekend.

Hit and Miss - but i'll explain....

Firstly, our band is always everything throught the PA - full drum kit, bass, guitar, keys, x4 vocals, and we always use x2 tops and x2 subs as minimum.

So, sods law, we turn up at the venue and its tiny. Really small with terrible access. So, we decide to use just the tops for PA. My bass cab and unmic'd drums would easily cover the room (and they did).

It was a no pressure gig, so i had planned to give the in ears a try for the first time ever.

Behringer P2 - ZS10 headphones.

The plan was to run a feed from the desk (everything but bass) into a mini mixer, then another feed from my amp into the mixer, so i could mix myself. (if that makes sense?). Cheap and cheerful solution.

As things do, the gremlins decided to turn up - the input from the bass amp into the mini mixer didnt work, so i just took a feed from the desk with a little bit of bass and put that into the mini mixer and fed the mini mixer to the P2. As i was stood right next to my cab - hearing bass would be fine.

So, to sound check - even though i tried lots of different buds and worn them in the house - the zs10s werent a great fit, no matter what buds i used. The left ear seemed ok and to be fair didnt move a lot, but the right kept falling and working its way out. The sound to start from the desk to my ears was pretty bad. Really tinny and not good quality for listening - although that could be because we hadnt bass or any drums coming through the ears as they werent mic'd up so i may have got a lot of high mid heavy mix). It wasnt really loud or defined. To be fair i was paranoid about getting a full seal in my ears. Never played isolated before so was a bit over cautious, especially with having no way of getting the drums to my ears.

Anyway, tonight was the night to try, as if it failed, i could just take the ears out and still hear the band as we were so close together in a small room.

On to the start, a bit of faff getting set up in time with our intro before we kicked in with the first song, but just about managed it. Perhaps working out what to go on stage with might be of help next time (ie do you go on with your ears in, then attach to the p2 when you put your bass on?

First few tracks, in the first set, and the sound was ok, not great but ok. As i say, i didnt have a great seal at all, but i could not have tried harder to get them right in my ears. I did like the fact i could turn up effectively the vocals and guitars by the p2 on my belt when i needed. What i didnt like at first was the fact the bass cab was behind me, but the guitars and vocals were in my ears. The bass felt completely detatched, as if it was in a different room, so i was paranoid that i may be slightly behind the beat or out of time. What i was very aware of was the fact i found myself completely still as if i was just listening to the music and not involved with creating it, rather than moving around, being fully immeresed in the music.

We only did about 45 minutes in the first set, and id kind of started to get accustomed to how to play using the in ears, but then it was time for a break.

Second set, and i decided id stick with it. At certain stages of popping the ZS10s back in my ears mid gig, i did get a good seal, and the quality was obviously better, but i did feel paranoid as its a completely different feeling.

We got throught he set and it went well, but in all honesty i didnt have a clue how id played! Not having the drums or bass in my ears wasnt great, but the control i had over the guitar and vocals (albeit together) was. A week later videos came through from the crowd and luckily everything seemed nice and tight! phew!

Im going to stick with it, but feel the ZS10s and their fit just wont do it for me. Its not a great fit, and therefore not a great sound. So, time has tought me buy once and buy right, so having spoken to CIEM and LUGS its going to be one of them, alongside the P2, with the ZS10s as spares.

Before i take the plunge, just a few questions for anyone who regularly uses them:

1. What do you walk on stage with? (ears in? nothing - put everything in when putting bass on etc).

2. Do you go for the full isolation seal?

3. P2 users - do you use STEREO or MONO? 

4. What volume do you go to? Is it not just as dangerous to have headphones blaring in your ears as it is backline?

5. Would the P2 be good enough if i bought a pair of ultimate ears 6?

6. Weve got a lot of walk in events coming up with external sound guys and pa companies - what would you recommend i ask them for - feed wise and sound wise? I can guarantee there would be no chance of getting a perfect mix, due to time restraints and unwillingness of pa guys to get involved. Ive seen people turn up with other bands and get sorted, but no idea what they take and give to the sound guys?

7. We are also doing a lot of large outdoor festivals, does anyone on here use them at festivals and what do you ask the sound guy for, and what do you give them? (or is it just a case of adapt and go back to monitors)?

 

Any help appreciated.

 

 

[stingrayPete1977]

Sounds to me like you might have had them in stereo but with a mono feed, I was rocking out with mine at home then set them up a few days later and it was tinny, no head room, awful. Then I realised it was a different P2 and sure enough it was in stereo, swapped it to mono and it blew my head off! 

There are other tips available for the in ears, foam or silicone and various sizes, I wouldn't spend a fortune on molded plugs only to find out that they won't work for you. 

Personally I wouldn't use in ears in a band where some members are and others aren't, from what you say you could spend loads on new in ears only to find that it's the dodgy mix. 

I'm sure more knowledgeable folk will be along soon. 

As for the stage entrance, I put the wire down the back of my shirt then you can hang the left and right plugs on the correct side, put the P2 on your belt with the 3.5 jack already in, I then loop the xlr lead over my guitar strap just like my guitar lead. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by stingrayPete1977

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, la bam said:

Before i take the plunge, just a few questions for anyone who regularly uses them:

1. What do you walk on stage with? (ears in? nothing - put everything in when putting bass on etc).

2. Do you go for the full isolation seal?

3. P2 users - do you use STEREO or MONO? 

4. What volume do you go to? Is it not just as dangerous to have headphones blaring in your ears as it is backline?

5. Would the P2 be good enough if i bought a pair of ultimate ears 6?

6. Weve got a lot of walk in events coming up with external sound guys and pa companies - what would you recommend i ask them for - feed wise and sound wise? I can guarantee there would be no chance of getting a perfect mix, due to time restraints and unwillingness of pa guys to get involved. Ive seen people turn up with other bands and get sorted, but no idea what they take and give to the sound guys?

7. We are also doing a lot of large outdoor festivals, does anyone on here use them at festivals and what do you ask the sound guy for, and what do you give them? (or is it just a case of adapt and go back to monitors)?

Any help appreciated.

1. Usually have IEMs hanging around my neck with the cable going down the back of my top. Walk on stage where P2 is already connected to XLR lead. Pick it up and clip it to the pocket of my trousers*... insert jack into P2. Insert inears. Whole process less than 10 seconds.

2. Always full isolation. Number of reasons - 1. ear protection 2. better bass response 3. don't have to run the drivers as hard - less chance of distortion. - You've probably found, unless you have everything in your ears mix, things sound odd. Basically, assume you can hear nothing unless it's being piped into your mix. Don't rely on any ambience. Ambient ports are BS for bass players too - they effectively break the seal to the outside world... so whilst they let the outside in, they also let all your bass out... and you'll be wanting for more bass... and pushing that volume more and more. I'd never advise anybody to go for ambient ports. (Maybe except performers on theatre stages where the onstage volume is low).

3. Depends whether you are sending a stereo mix from your desk. Mono, if TRS/XLR balanced. Stereo if TRS unbalanced. Stereo also achievable via Y lead to single XLR (unbalanced but utilising two separate aux sockets on the desk).

4. It is - thats why you want good isolation so that you don't have to turn the volume up too loud to get over the ambient sound that is leaking through your head, skull, body, IEMs themselves.

5. Yes. It's a pretty good headphone amp, especially for what it costs. More expensive headphone amps aren't necessarily better. There's things like the Shure - which is lovely - but ultimately, it doesn't offer anything apart from an inbuilt limiter to stop you pushing the volume too high (but you do then introduce a custom cable with that... which brings its own troubles).

6.  If you don't trust the sound guys - don't use inears. They can send you all sorts of guff... especially if they don't know what they are doing. Suddenly volume spikes are not cool. If they are competent, then they should be able to send you a mono mix to a XLR to plug into your P2 just as they would a powered wedge.

7. Generally just use monitors unless you have specified it in a rider beforehand. Depends how far up the pecking order you are.

 

StingrayPete is right about mono/stereo switch.. make sure it's in the right position.

Tips are personal things - if you don't get the right tips, the IEMs can be troublesome... or you may be like me and have odd ears... which was the reason why I started down the custom IEM route in the first place (do it, it's a MASSIVE improvement on a number of levels)

 

 

* If JTUK is lurking, that's your gig strides.

[la bam]

Thanks.

What in your opinion would you ask the sound guys for? - just a general 'everything' mix? A FOH mix? or is there some terminology that will cover it. Ideally id prefer a full mix of everything. 

[EBS_freak]

18 minutes ago, la bam said:

Thanks.

What in your opinion would you ask the sound guys for? - just a general 'everything' mix? A FOH mix? or is there some terminology that will cover it. Ideally id prefer a full mix of everything. 

Try a level mix with a bias with the bass guitar.

[EBS_freak]

My fb feed is awash with people having ear impressions taken with their mouths closed and no bite block.

 

arghhgggggghhg

 

I need to sit down and chill out for a bit.

[Osiris]

On 04/02/2019 at 22:02, la bam said:

... even though i tried lots of different buds and worn them in the house - the zs10s werent a great fit, no matter what buds i used.

Out of interest, what replacement tips are you using with the ZS10's? I am using the large rubber ones that came with mine and they offer a good tight seal for me but one of the tips has an extra bit of rubber that look like a moulding defect that irritates the inside of my ear after a while, so I'm looking to replace them but I don't know what aftermarket tips fit them. What tips/buds have you tried? 

[la bam]

Just ones from ebay. Frustrating as I can use a couple of different ones for my left ear, but struggle with my right.

[Osiris]

1 hour ago, la bam said:

Just ones from ebay. Frustrating as I can use a couple of different ones for my left ear, but struggle with my right.

Cheers,

Are you using something like these? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Replacement-Sport-Ear-Gels-Earbuds-Tips-for-Various-Devices-Flange-Ear-Buds/282177969644?var=581177088266

If it's something else, can you share a link please? 

[la bam]

Similar. Someone quoted in this thread what to search for. Can't remember what the term was. I'll have a look.

[la bam]

This is it,

 

Search for eartips, comply tips or spinfits are usually a good bet depending upon your preference.