In Ear Monitors - help needed...

[EBS_freak]

6 minutes ago, Muppet said:

I went to see Paul last week for some impressions. Unfortunately he couldn't do them as I had a build up of ear wax that would have prevented a good impression being made and he was focused on ensuring he could get the best possible mould. It ended up as an aborted initial visit, a reschedule and a trip to an ear clinic. I'm not complaining at all as i would much rather it happen that way around but worth noting for anyone getting impressions made. 

I know it's disappointing - but in reality, it's the best thing. A lot of people would go ahead and take the impression anyway. There is no point in having an impression taken with wax build up - you'll end up with a useless impression... or  even if it does go forward to build, you'll end up with an less than perfect fit. This then causes further disappointment and delay and hassle for everybody involved... shipping back, refits, etc etc... Best to get the impression right from the word go. Yes, some impressions will still result in a less than perfect build - but they are ultimately a lot more rare and easier to deal with and put right than one sources from a duff impression.

Anyway - did you manage to audition and choose an IEM? If so, what did you go with?

[Muppet]

Yes, absolutely right and I want the best fit possible so I've no problems with how it's worked out!  

I took your test tracks and a couple of mine and A/Bd the UE5 and UE6 against my current iems (a massive difference) and opted for the 6s by small amount, reinforced by the recommendations of yourself, Tom and Nick.  Back down to see Paul on the 8th. 

[EBS_freak]

36 minutes ago, Muppet said:

Yes, absolutely right and I want the best fit possible so I've no problems with how it's worked out!  

I took your test tracks and a couple of mine and A/Bd the UE5 and UE6 against my current iems (a massive difference) and opted for the 6s by small amount, reinforced by the recommendations of yourself, Tom and Nick.  Back down to see Paul on the 8th. 

You wait til you ditch the tips for the custom fit... another significant improvement waiting for you!

That Can't Stop Playing track is one that separates the men from the boys in the bass department! 😛 

[stingrayPete1977]

No need for my van for gigs now, pa, stands, lights in ear kit, mixer etc all in the car without even using the front seat or footwell. 

Long live in ears! 

Edited March 3, 2019 by stingrayPete1977

[la bam]

We'll...... I just can't get used to in ears.

It's slightly harder as our set is so eclectic in style - from hard rock to ballads, jazz to funk - that the mix is never right.

Also, having huge problems 'feeling it'. Just end up standing there like I'm listening to an mp3 player.

Best advice o had last gig was to just use one. So in the second set half way through I popped the left ear out and kept the right in. It was brilliant. Got that feel back and could hear everything great with the balance of drums to my left and guitars, vocals and keys in my right.

Still 50/50 whether to ditch them or not.

I hate the isolation part.

[Andy1963]

Hi Guys,

I'm fairly new to this forum, but have read with interest the debate regarding in ear monitors. I'm looking at going to try the UE 5/6 in a couple of weeks and would like a bit of advice from EBS Freak regarding the limiter mentioned a while ago to protect our ears from cable pops etc; is there a limiter that you could recommend please?

Many thanks,

Regards,

Andy

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, la bam said:

We'll...... I just can't get used to in ears.

It's slightly harder as our set is so eclectic in style - from hard rock to ballads, jazz to funk - that the mix is never right.

Also, having huge problems 'feeling it'. Just end up standing there like I'm listening to an mp3 player.

Best advice o had last gig was to just use one. So in the second set half way through I popped the left ear out and kept the right in. It was brilliant. Got that feel back and could hear everything great with the balance of drums to my left and guitars, vocals and keys in my right.

Still 50/50 whether to ditch them or not.

I hate the isolation part.

A few questions - are you running any ambient mics? And more importantly, are you running in stereo? A stereo ambient mic should alleviate all your problems. Can you tell us more about your setup?

Running with one inear in and one out isn’t ideal - especially from an ear safety point of view. You tend to over compensate on volume and end up blasting your IEM loaded at dangerous levels.

If it’s the sensation of wanting to “feel” big air from an amp... give us a bit, me and super @intime-nick are working on that as we speak.

The potential production candidate board is looking awesome. Should have the board design going off to be CNCed any time now. Then it will be a case of making sure they are fine and dandy!

[EBS_freak]

4 hours ago, Andy1963 said:

Hi Guys,

I'm fairly new to this forum, but have read with interest the debate regarding in ear monitors. I'm looking at going to try the UE 5/6 in a couple of weeks and would like a bit of advice from EBS Freak regarding the limiter mentioned a while ago to protect our ears from cable pops etc; is there a limiter that you could recommend please?

Many thanks,

Regards,

Andy

Hey Andy - sorry about the delay (didn't want you to think that I had glossed over your entry - but my battery died on my phone mid response) - with regard to the limiter, a lot of external IEM specific limiters I don't find to be that great. Most of them are simply a device that stop you from turning the volume up rather than introducing any particular sort of compression before hitting a limiter. With regards to a recommendation, if you want a true brick wall limiter, set a fast attack 20:1 with a hard knee compressor on the aux buss(es) of your digital mixer. (You could do this by using an outboard limiter if you haven't got a digital desk... but with the cost of an XR18 now, just get one already if you haven't!) Hope this helps!

  

[EBS_freak]

5 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

No need for my van for gigs now, pa, stands, lights in ear kit, mixer etc all in the car without even using the front seat or footwell. 

Long live in ears! 

If your monitors can't fit into your glove box, then you aren't doing it properly :p

[Andy1963]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Hey Andy - sorry about the delay (didn't want you to think that I had glossed over your entry - but my battery died on my phone mid response) - with regard to the limiter, a lot of external IEM specific limiters I don't find to be that great. Most of them are simply a device that stop you from turning the volume up rather than introducing any particular sort of compression before hitting a limiter. With regards to a recommendation, if you want a true brick wall limiter, set a fast attack 20:1 with a hard knee compressor on the aux buss(es) of your digital mixer. (You could do this by using an outboard limiter if you haven't got a digital desk... but with the cost of an XR18 now, just get one already if you haven't!) Hope this helps!

  

Hi EBS, Thank you for your reply; don't worry about the time scale; I'm self employed and my time in front of a pc or laptop is very limited! We're only playing pubs battling with 2 guitars, keys and the loudest drummer in the world, so in ears are the only way forward for us! Anyway, at present we're using an A&H 12 Ch non digital desk, but the guys got a cheap unit to distribute the mix to a number of earpieces (sorry, can't remember what make it is, but can find out as it's down at work), however, it was the limiter that you mentioned a while ago that got me thinking and hence the message asking for your advice, which is very much appreciated. We got a Soundcraft Ui 16 last year but shelved it due to it letting us down with connection problems on a couple of gigs, so it's collecting dust at the mo. One thought was to use this purely as a monitor controller and have the A&H as the main mixer - technology isn't my forte, even though one of the guitarists has a 2nd band and they use the 24 ch version of the Ui without any issues... Looking forward to going down to 64 Audio  and trying some UEs' out after speaking to Paul last week; it was a toss up between Shure and custom, but custom it is! Thanks again EBS, All the best, Andy

[EBS_freak]

15 hours ago, Andy1963 said:

Hi EBS, Thank you for your reply; don't worry about the time scale; I'm self employed and my time in front of a pc or laptop is very limited! We're only playing pubs battling with 2 guitars, keys and the loudest drummer in the world, so in ears are the only way forward for us! Anyway, at present we're using an A&H 12 Ch non digital desk, but the guys got a cheap unit to distribute the mix to a number of earpieces (sorry, can't remember what make it is, but can find out as it's down at work), however, it was the limiter that you mentioned a while ago that got me thinking and hence the message asking for your advice, which is very much appreciated. We got a Soundcraft Ui 16 last year but shelved it due to it letting us down with connection problems on a couple of gigs, so it's collecting dust at the mo. One thought was to use this purely as a monitor controller and have the A&H as the main mixer - technology isn't my forte, even though one of the guitarists has a 2nd band and they use the 24 ch version of the Ui without any issues... Looking forward to going down to 64 Audio  and trying some UEs' out after speaking to Paul last week; it was a toss up between Shure and custom, but custom it is! Thanks again EBS, All the best, Andy

OK going through your post -

Is the distribution unit a one to many headphone amp? If it is, you are all going to be sharing the same mix... which is a huge compromise to start with. As you may have read, you ideally want a minimum of an aux each, which will give you your own individual mono mix. Stereo is better... but mono is better than nothing! I'm guessing with an A&H you are looking at one or maybe two prefader auxes... again, this will compomise things greatly for you.

I would give the UI16 another go - the connectivity problems are going to be down to the useless onboard wifi systems that the manufacturers bundle with their routers. Literally any old 5Ghz router that you can find, new or old (have you got any old internet routers from home knocking around?) are pretty much guaranteed to solve any connectivity problems that you have got. You are right though, using the UI16 as a monitor mixer is going to be infinitely better than what you'll be able to do with the analogue desk. If you are wanting to use a true monitor world/front of house split desk setup, you are going to be looking at investing in some analogue splits and looms so you can split the signals between the two mixers. Honestly though, I think you'd be better off revisiting the UI16 and using that as your only mixer.

[Andy1963]

8 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

OK going through your post -

Is the distribution unit a one to many headphone amp? If it is, you are all going to be sharing the same mix... which is a huge compromise to start with. As you may have read, you ideally want a minimum of an aux each, which will give you your own individual mono mix. Stereo is better... but mono is better than nothing! I'm guessing with an A&H you are looking at one or maybe two prefader auxes... again, this will compomise things greatly for you.

I would give the UI16 another go - the connectivity problems are going to be down to the useless onboard wifi systems that the manufacturers bundle with their routers. Literally any old 5Ghz router that you can find, new or old (have you got any old internet routers from home knocking around?) are pretty much guaranteed to solve any connectivity problems that you have got. You are right though, using the UI16 as a monitor mixer is going to be infinitely better than what you'll be able to do with the analogue desk. If you are wanting to use a true monitor world/front of house split desk setup, you are going to be looking at investing in some analogue splits and looms so you can split the signals between the two mixers. Honestly though, I think you'd be better off revisiting the UI16 and using that as your only mixer.

Hi EBS,

Thank you for the above; we will be trying the UI again in the next few weeks, as like you say, a stereo mix is better than mono. I'm fairly sure that the distribution unit is as you suggest above, but I'm going to spend some time going through it all and your advice is much appreciated; thank you again. Will let you know how things pan out. All the best, Andy

[Phil Starr]

On 03/03/2019 at 13:06, la bam said:

We'll...... I just can't get used to in ears.

It's slightly harder as our set is so eclectic in style - from hard rock to ballads, jazz to funk - that the mix is never right.

Also, having huge problems 'feeling it'. Just end up standing there like I'm listening to an mp3 player.

Best advice o had last gig was to just use one. So in the second set half way through I popped the left ear out and kept the right in. It was brilliant. Got that feel back and could hear everything great with the balance of drums to my left and guitars, vocals and keys in my right.

Still 50/50 whether to ditch them or not.

I hate the isolation part.

I know what you mean but my hearing loss and tinnitus says stick with it, yours probably will too eventually. There's a thread here on using the Zoom H2 pocket recorder as an ambient monitor. I've got the Zoom H4N recorder so I decided to give it a go at a rehearsal a couple of weeks back. Our drummer is a PITA as he doesn't get his walkies too often and overcompensates with enthusiasm when he does. he is really loud. So you plug your in-ears into the monitor output of the Zoom and press record. I shoved the recorder in my back pocket. It picks up all the sound around you and, you know what? it's the nearest thing to playing live with a volume control. I then tried it hanging off my mic stand through a wireless system and it worked as well. in fact sliding it up the stand meant I didn't need the vocal monitor, more me just by positioning the recorder a bit closer. I'm intending a bit more experimentation but if it works I might swap the H4 for the H2 which is smaller and make it permanent. 

[EBS_freak]

3 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I know what you mean but my hearing loss and tinnitus says stick with it, yours probably will too eventually. There's a thread here on using the Zoom H2 pocket recorder as an ambient monitor. I've got the Zoom H4N recorder so I decided to give it a go at a rehearsal a couple of weeks back. Our drummer is a PITA as he doesn't get his walkies too often and overcompensates with enthusiasm when he does. he is really loud. So you plug your in-ears into the monitor output of the Zoom and press record. I shoved the recorder in my back pocket. It picks up all the sound around you and, you know what? it's the nearest thing to playing live with a volume control. I then tried it hanging off my mic stand through a wireless system and it worked as well. in fact sliding it up the stand meant I didn't need the vocal monitor, more me just by positioning the recorder a bit closer. I'm intending a bit more experimentation but if it works I might swap the H4 for the H2 which is smaller and make it permanent. 

Listen to Phil - persevere and get used to it! Here's the link to which Phil refers - (there's been similar conversations in this thread but this is probably easier to find and digest!)

A couple of behringer C2s into a couple of channels on your mxing desk is also another cheap enough shout for putting the room back in your ears... so to speak. Again, there's no right or wrong about ambient or not... it's doing what you feel comfortable with.

[la bam]

Sorry, been busy this week, will write up my set up later, thanks again.

[andysg42]

Big Thanks to EBS freak / Russ for his advice again . Ordered the behringer p16m mixer . Stereo in ears here we come 👍. Just need your board now Russ . Hurry up please 🙏🏼😂

[la bam]

My set up for the last 2 gigs – and I know it’s not ideal:
Band mix, with me really low in the mix.
There’s only me using in ears.
We all still use amps and cabs.
Mix from desk goes to my behringer p2 then zs10s. Everyone else has their own physical speaker monitors.
Main problems are:
1.    Not all the drums are mic'd, so I had real trouble in not hearing the high hat for example.
2.    Our set really needs constant riding on the desk. We are a queen tribute band so almost every song is a different sound and mix. We consist of, drums (large kit), bass (me), guitar, keys and synth, main vocals, 3 backing vocals, iPad for set intros. We arent just a one sound type of band, other wise it would be easier.
3.    Full isolation is nearly impossible without risking a huge blunder, there’s too much going on – banter with the crowd, vocal intros, instrument intros etc. I really need to hear everything. When i get isolation with the headphones its a lottery what i cant hear.
4.    We did have an issue with guitar last gig, I could hear it if the headphone jack was half out, but not if fully in. This didn’t happen with other instruments.
5.    I’ve no control over mix levels, just overall volume on the p2.

Hope that helps. I realise it’s not ideal, but when I took the in ears out mid way through the second set it was like I’d come alive. Everything was rich and more rock n roll (if that makes sense) rather than a poor mp3 player sound.
 

[EBS_freak]

21 minutes ago, andysg42 said:

Big Thanks to EBS freak / Russ for his advice again . Ordered the behringer p16m mixer . Stereo in ears here we come 👍. Just need your board now Russ . Hurry up please 🙏🏼😂

Ha - P16M will be another game changer for you! You'll be - how the hell did I cope without stereo?! The good news is that freeing up an aux will open up further possibilities for the board! (Note - it's not essential to have a free aux to use this board... we've gone through many iterations as how the amp and board element should co-exist. With your particular setup, you'll have lots of options!)

The board is coming along nicely, I think that we are nearly there from the first phase of getting the plans all computerised for CNC- just got to try and figure out what the cheapest way of getting the prototypes made... and currently trying to get all the elements (and especially the cool as !!!! badges made), cost effective. Not going to rush these things out - both of us want these to be bang on! (Both in performance and looks) - Once we have the first two out, I suspect Nick and me going to be taking them through their paces to refine as required. Stick with us - they are looking cool as hell!

[EBS_freak]

19 minutes ago, la bam said:

My set up for the last 2 gigs – and I know it’s not ideal:
Band mix, with me really low in the mix.
There’s only me using in ears.
We all still use amps and cabs.
Mix from desk goes to my behringer p2 then zs10s. Everyone else has their own physical speaker monitors.
Main problems are:
1.    Not all the drums are mic'd, so I had real trouble in not hearing the high hat for example.
2.    Our set really needs constant riding on the desk. We are a queen tribute band so almost every song is a different sound and mix. We consist of, drums (large kit), bass (me), guitar, keys and synth, main vocals, 3 backing vocals, iPad for set intros. We arent just a one sound type of band, other wise it would be easier.
3.    Full isolation is nearly impossible without risking a huge blunder, there’s too much going on – banter with the crowd, vocal intros, instrument intros etc. I really need to hear everything. When i get isolation with the headphones its a lottery what i cant hear.
4.    We did have an issue with guitar last gig, I could hear it if the headphone jack was half out, but not if fully in. This didn’t happen with other instruments.
5.    I’ve no control over mix levels, just overall volume on the p2.

Hope that helps. I realise it’s not ideal, but when I took the in ears out mid way through the second set it was like I’d come alive. Everything was rich and more rock n roll (if that makes sense) rather than a poor mp3 player sound.
 

Gosh - there's quite a lot to this. If you are riding the faders that much that a hand off monitor mix can't be established... there's something fundamentally different going on with your band. Im guessing guitar patches for different songs are radically different. Remember, your monitor feeds should be pre fader, so whatever is happening FoH shouldnt be impacting your monitor mix.

So lets have a look -

1. What drums are miced? It's nice to have a full miced kit in your ears, so it can all be panned nicely etc... As a minimum, I'd be looking at a kick and overhead, positioned over the opposite shoulder to the one nearest the snare, pointing across the kit, pointing at the snare and hihat. This will give you the most coverage of the kit but enable you to hear the detail in the hi hat.

2. I don't quite know what to suggest here. If everything is close miced up, you shouldn't have a radically different sound in terms of volume. If you are riding the faders as much as you, there's something wrong with the patches or the dynamics of the players.

3. Full isolation is possible - it's whats you feed into your mix which is crucial. Want to hear the audience? Mic them up. Vocal introductions? Introduce a talk back mic.. possibly on an optogate.

4. This sounds like a TRS/TS issue. Are you trying to use a stereo jack on a mono output or something - and was the guitar panned where the others weren't? Pulling the jack would sum to mono and would result in what you describe.

5. Are you all on a shared mix or something? Or have you not got your own aux? What mixer are you using?

I suspect you aren't giving IEMs a fair chance because it sounds like you could be being limited by the equipment that you are using? Always assume you can hear nothing unless it's miced up - and go from there. If you need to hear the guitars, mic them up. If you need to hear synths - make sure you have a feed from them going into your aux bus... same with bass DI. Think that we've covered the kit - but again, the more you can mic up, the better control you will have over the balance. You don't even need to push things through FoH - for example, you could have a Vox blaring away on stage at such a volume it doesn't need to be miced to go through the FoH, it's only miced so it can go through your IEMs.

[la bam]

I guess I over exaggerated the riding the desk a little bit, but it was to try and explain that our set up is a little different to a standard 4 piece. 

What I do when I have a physical monitor is move around if I'm struggling to hear a certain instrument. Ie if the guitar is slightly lower for a song I can move closer to it, if the keys are a lot louder for a certain song, I can move away from them. If i need to get real tight with the drums i can move right next to the drummer. If i need to hear me louder i can move next to my bass cab.

Having complete isolation via headphones completely gets rid of the ability to do that. That's probably what I'm struggling with. That and the complete lack of being able to get into the performance.

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, la bam said:

I guess I over exaggerated the riding the desk a little bit, but it was to try and explain that our set up is a little different to a standard 4 piece. 

What I do when I have a physical monitor is move around if I'm struggling to hear a certain instrument. Ie if the guitar is slightly lower for a song I can move closer to it, if the keys are a lot louder for a certain song, I can move away from them. If i need to get real tight with the drums i can move right next to the drummer. If i need to hear me louder i can move next to my bass cab.

Having complete isolation via headphones completely gets rid of the ability to do that. That's probably what I'm struggling with. That and the complete lack of being able to get into the performance.

Sounds like you need a Klang 3d system... (and plenty of pennies!)

What you speak of isn’t common - I’m guessing your source is very variable and that causing you some problems. I’d probably be looking at some expanders and compressors to help even things out - but guessing your desk is not digital? (And maybe hasn’t got that feature set?)

[LukeFRC]

I used to play at a church with a big old Allen and heath desk and loads of ME1 boxes to set your own personal mix. 

Quite good. 

Anyway a year later we’re going to a different church which is much smaller - and they have an smaller Allen and Heath desk and the monitor mix is controlled from your phone via a Qu-you app - this is amazing! Not only do you get to group things and have easy sliders to change volume, but you’ve got master eq and compression for your monitor mix... 

it’s pretty good and I think simpler to tweak live. 

Anyway - half relivent to the topic

[EBS_freak]

Just looking at another thread... here's a question...

 

Should there be a volume control... or a "heft" control? 😛

[andysg42]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Just looking at another thread... here's a question...

 

Should there be a volume control... or a "heft" control? 😛

? 

[EBS_freak]

Just ignore me. I'm just being stooooopid.