In Ear Monitors - help needed...

[Muzz]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1400881841' post='2457969']
I've just had a cable made up by OBBM on here, which pairs a mono instrument cable with a stereo headphone feed, I'm going to use a headphone mixer/amp on my amp to control the mix of PA feed/direct bass signal.
[/quote]

This is I think what you're asking about - the cable is a single piece (kinda figure-eight in section), one side has the normal two 1/4" jack plugs for the instrument either end, the other side has a 3.5mm stereo socket at one end so you can plug you in-ears in, and at the other end a 3.5mm (or 1/4") plug to plug into your headphone mixer/amp sitting on top of your amp.

I used mine on Saturday night, and it worked well (there's another thread - the iOS for Gigging Bassist one) where I go into more detail, but overall it's a good solution.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Muzz

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dand666' timestamp='1401178285' post='2460740']
Sorry can you explain that in lamen terms.

I do play with a cable yes.

Sorry :-)
[/quote]

What Muzz said

[dand666]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1401190604' post='2460917']
What Muzz said
[/quote]

Thanks, and OBBM do this? I've recently bought a cable from him and can't recommend him enough!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dand666' timestamp='1401196761' post='2461002']
Thanks, and OBBM do this? I've recently bought a cable from him and can't recommend him enough!
[/quote]

He sounds like the man to contact.

[mike257]

I'm about to embark on an IEM adventure with my 5 piece function band. I've gradually dragged them into a decent PA setup but monitoring is still an issue.

We're going to go wired as everyone is tied to a guitar cable/keyboard/drum stool anyway, so I'm looking at rack mounting a 4 channel headphone amp for me, singer, keys and bassist (I'm on guitar with this crowd) running to a [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/fischer_amps_mini_bodypack_mit_lsregler.htm"]Fischer Mini Bodypack[/url] each - this is an in line belt clip unit with a passive (attenuation only) volume control. This means we can set a max comfortable level at the amp then we've all got the ability to adjust mid-gig without going too far and taking our heads off. The drummer can have a single channel headphone amp sat next to him, no need for the Bodypack there. Think we'll be funding the above kit from band gear kitty but everyone will pick up their own IEMs so I'm fully expecting to see a set of iPod earphones appear from at least one of them!

Just read through the whole thread and there's tons of useful info, particularly on earphone choice. I've been planning to get some moulded plugs for sound engineering work anyway so got another reason to invest now!

Edited June 2, 2014 by mike257

[EBS_freak]

Seems like a good strategy to me.

Looks like OBBM could be making up a load of cables...!

[Simon.]

[color=#222222]Holla folks, just wondering if anyone here has had experience recently of ACS in-ears?[/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222]Recently Mrs Simon. treated me to a set of in-ears to use as general headphones and for practicing at home. My old and much loved Sennheiser CX6's were starting to fall to pieces, albeit audio-wise they were still perfect, and a replacement was needed.[/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222]A number of years back I got a set of ER-15 earplugs and they remain to this day the single best music related purchase I've ever made, so I was quite keen to go down the moulded route again. I decided on the ACS T1's, had the impressions done and waited a couple of weeks. Even though I was expecting and prepared for a different sound from what I was used to with the old CX6's, my disappointment on trying them was immediate![/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222]Decent clarity on vocals, but overall tinny and with no bass response at all. I tried A/B tests with my old headphones, and even a fairly cheap pair, and all had better response. I even felt that the right channel on it’s own was just about acceptable, but the left was unusable – real AM radio quality sound.[/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222]So, back they went for a check over, especially as I, and others, felt that was a disparity between left and right.[/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222]However, I received them back again this morning, with a note saying they couldn’t find anything wrong with them, and once again, IMO, they are just terrible. They suck the life out of anything, no bass response, and to be honest I’m not noticing any benefit of the supposed 26dB of isolation. Background noise levels are virtually identical with them in or out.[/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222]So, does anyone know where I stand on getting a refund on these, considering they are a custom product?[/color]
[color=#222222][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"] [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#222222]Also, I have wondered if they fit of the moulding might be somewhat to blame. They feel really comfortable to wear, but the lack of isolation makes me wonder if that might be the root cause. Any thoughts?[/color]

[Gunsfreddy2003]

This all sounds too familiar to me!

I had ER-15's and then deceided to dip my toe in the water and try the ACS T-15 which replaced the filter and gave you a good entry level IEM but the result was horrendous absolutely no bass and bad distortion too, infact the buds with my AT IEM system sounded 100 times better and gave so much more bass.

I went back to ACS (in person) and explained what I was hearing, their owner took time to sit down with me and was shocked that as a bass player I was told that the T15 route would work, he took out his brief case and let me listen to some tunes using the T1 triple driver IEM's through a generic headphone. I was blown away by the difference in bass response and the highs too. He gave me a cracking deal on the price to change and I ordered them there and then.

I used them regularly on rehearsals in our studio and they always sounded great, loads of bass and they made rehearsals so much more fun it was like listening to a CD rather than us. So I would say that you must have a problem with the fit of your T1's, when I wear mind I can't hear anything in the room it is just like wearing ear plugs and that is what then makes the bass response so good.

I am not sure that ACS could offer you a refund but they are a great company to deal with and I am sure will work with you until you can get it right.

[quote name='Simon.' timestamp='1402578250' post='2474956']
[color=#222222]Holla folks, just wondering if anyone here has had experience recently of ACS in-ears?[/color]

[color=#222222]Recently Mrs Simon. treated me to a set of in-ears to use as general headphones and for practicing at home. My old and much loved Sennheiser CX6's were starting to fall to pieces, albeit audio-wise they were still perfect, and a replacement was needed.[/color]

[color=#222222]A number of years back I got a set of ER-15 earplugs and they remain to this day the single best music related purchase I've ever made, so I was quite keen to go down the moulded route again. I decided on the ACS T1's, had the impressions done and waited a couple of weeks. Even though I was expecting and prepared for a different sound from what I was used to with the old CX6's, my disappointment on trying them was immediate![/color]

[color=#222222]Decent clarity on vocals, but overall tinny and with no bass response at all. I tried A/B tests with my old headphones, and even a fairly cheap pair, and all had better response. I even felt that the right channel on it’s own was just about acceptable, but the left was unusable – real AM radio quality sound.[/color]

[color=#222222]So, back they went for a check over, especially as I, and others, felt that was a disparity between left and right.[/color]

[color=#222222]However, I received them back again this morning, with a note saying they couldn’t find anything wrong with them, and once again, IMO, they are just terrible. They suck the life out of anything, no bass response, and to be honest I’m not noticing any benefit of the supposed 26dB of isolation. Background noise levels are virtually identical with them in or out.[/color]

[color=#222222]So, does anyone know where I stand on getting a refund on these, considering they are a custom product?[/color]

[color=#222222]Also, I have wondered if they fit of the moulding might be somewhat to blame. They feel really comfortable to wear, but the lack of isolation makes me wonder if that might be the root cause. Any thoughts?[/color]
[/quote]

[Muzz]

I've got the T15s in a set of ACS moulds, and I get plenty of bass. Not as good as triple drivers, naturally, but then they're a third of the price. I use them for general listening, too, and they're fine for me. Better than the SE215s I had, certainly.

There's got to have been something wrong with the seal if the was no bass at all...as with all in-ears, it's all about the fit. If they're not attenuating the outside world, they're not fitting properly.

Are you using the black adaptors between the T15s and the moulds?

Edited June 12, 2014 by Muzz

[Simon.]

Sorry, slight correction - it's a set of T3's I have (single driver), not the triple driver T1's.

I do suspect the seal might not be part of the problem, as just using them as earplugs, I'm really not noticing much attenuation of background noise. Might be quicker to contact ACS direct, rather than going through my local retailer (who have been OK, but it just adds delays).

[Gunsfreddy2003]

Yep T3's are your problem here - the single driver just does not cut it for bass players I am afraid even though they are still bloody expensive. If you compare the T1 against the T3 they are like chalk and cheese, to put it simply to get the best bass response you have got to have a dedicated bass driver to handle all the low end that your bass will produce.

I agree about speaking direct to ACS (go to Andy Shiach the MD) and see how you get on.

[quote name='Simon.' timestamp='1402587169' post='2475069']
Sorry, slight correction - it's a set of T3's I have (single driver), not the triple driver T1's.

I do suspect the seal might not be part of the problem, as just using them as earplugs, I'm really not noticing much attenuation of background noise. Might be quicker to contact ACS direct, rather than going through my local retailer (who have been OK, but it just adds delays).
[/quote]

[EBS_freak]

If the seal isn't spot on, you'll lose all the bass very quickly. If the seal isn't A1 perfect, your bass is going to be escaping quicker than a quick thing. Second, the single driver is not enough for getting the thunderous bass that you crave. I don't think there is a driver that can give you the frequency response and headroom in one package. I think Jerry Harvey was the first person to crack the bottom end - he used a balanced armature from a pace maker to get the lows instead of the traditional hearing aid balanced armatures... hence why he suddenly becaome the market leader as the sound from his monitors eclipsed others of the period.

I think there's two situations here - theres the frequency response that you want as a listener to prerecorded music - and the frequency you want when playing live. The demands on the drivers are very different... in not just volume. As a listener, you probably want the best flat response you can get - although many manufacturers will tune the frequency response curves to get their signature sound. For example, a JH Audio triple sounds very different to a 1964 triple which in turn sounds very different again to ACS triple. Of course, live, as a bass player, you want to hear a dominant response in the bass... so the two situations either buy something that has the bass emphasis to begin with, or fix in the monitor mix with eq/bass levels. This is where things can get messy; pushing the bass too much can cause the balanced armatures to run out of grunt and distort. What you need is headroom - and that usually means adding more bass drivers, so you can work them less hard but get a greater overall balance of bass. Of course, live music, is going to be less perfectly compressed than the prerecorded stuff. I would wager most guys on here are going to be hearing a mix from a dry aux off the desk.

Andy's view on multiple drivers is very different to mine here - he is about hearing protection - so has never entertained the idea of pushing in loads of drivers into an IEM as it can make the SPL of an IEM very high. For me, it's not about volume, it's about headroom. If I want to push a bass frequency, I want to be able to without the sound breaking up. I don't play loud in my IEMs, I just have loads of headroom.

In short, the more experience I have with IEMs, the more I am convinced that in order to get the best out of them as a bass player, you really need a minimum of a quad with double bass driver. I currently rock a twelve drivers a side IEM and I have to say, it's streets ahead of the competition. However, it also costs a hell of a lot more than most of the manufacturers. I guess I am in the lucky situation where I can say I can boost the bass so that I have way, way too much bass than is comfortable - I have that much headroom now.

If you are asking me, what the best solution for the money is at the moment, hands down, I would suggest a 1964 ears quad - a good couple of hundred quid cheaper than ACS flagship for example. This would be what I call the point where things sound great - anything above this is a bonus, or sonically different. It's like comparing a 1964 v8 to a JH16. They both sound fantastic but similarly, sound very different. The V8 is darker, with a more relaxed top end. The JH16 for example, is more excited in the top end. Both sound great - but you may prefer the roll off of the v8 because it is less fatiguing to listen to for long periods. Anyway... What the ACS has however, is the ambient pack for their live series of monitors. They are simply amazing. However... the bass still isn't there. So as a singer, I think it would be hard to beat the ACS with the ambient pack. As a bass player with ACS and the ambient pack, I think the in ears are still keeping the product back because the bass response simply isn't as good as it could be.

Andy is a pleasure to speak to and is very passionate... if you are really serious about getting this sorted and you want to stay with ACS, you are looking at a mimimum of their T1 to get what I think you want. Otherwise, you'll have to look elsewhere.

I've said it before in this thread... you simply can't do effective inears on the cheap. Anybody who proclaims otherwise, is a liar - or doesn't really know what good IEM monitoring sounds like.

Simon - if you are deadly interested in IEMs done right, it's worth spending the money - drop me a PM any time if you want somebody to talk to them in detail. I don't know if you have read through the thread or not - but I run up to 7 sets of IEMs on a gig for the band - we all have differing in ears... each with proper compressed mixes, fx, eqs that are independent of front of house. If you give me a run down of what you are trying to achieve and the like, I can give you some ideas.

I guarantee, anybody looking to do this and do it right, it will change you for life. There is noway I would want to play without my IEMs now. No way.

Edited June 13, 2014 by EBS_freak

[Simon.]

EBS_freak - Thanks for a very comprehensive run down of the situation!

I'm beginning to suspect 2 things have gone wrong here - 1. I've gone for the wrong product right form the outset, and 2. the seal isn't very good. The fit is comfortable, but I'm not noticing a great deal of reduction in ambient background noise with them in - and they are supposed to have 27dB of isolation.

ACS have come back to me offering an upgrade to either the T2 or T1, but it's a lot of money, on top of what I've already spent.

[EBS_freak]

Hi Simon, I've replied to your PM with some of my views based on what you've said.... but also, from the above regarding isolation, those things should be snug in your ear. The isolation should be very noticable... like sticking your fingers in your ears. You should be finding it very difficult to hearing any sounds from around you. If you have a leakage, you'll be losing a lot of bottom end from the word go also.

[Gunsfreddy2003]

Hmmm - could have sworn I said exactly that yesterday!

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1402675178' post='2475905']
Hi Simon, I've replied to your PM with some of my views based on what you've said.... but also, from the above regarding isolation, those things should be snug in your ear. The isolation should be very noticable... like sticking your fingers in your ears. You should be finding it very difficult to hearing any sounds from around you. If you have a leakage, you'll be losing a lot of bottom end from the word go also.
[/quote]

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Gunsfreddy2003' timestamp='1402675296' post='2475908']
Hmmm - could have sworn I said exactly that yesterday!
[/quote]

That would be the echo resulting from poor isolation...

[mr zed]

I'm looking for a bit more advice guys. I am currently using my Sennheiser EW300 G2 iem system which I am really happy with. Due to (lack of) available funds, I have compromised on the in-ear part of the system to get me up and running (currently using Westone UM2's) until funds allow me get get some customs made. Well, that's where i'm at now. I have had a brief conversation with Paul at the Headphone Company and think I know what system I would like to invest in but thought i'd also ask you chaps on here that may have first hand experience. I'm thinking 1964 ears quads as a minimum but would appreciate anyones thoughts on upgrading from these to either the V6S or the V8's. Obviously there are financial implications but I would prefer to invest more in the right system if that is going to give me a marked improvement over what I consider to be the minimum requirements (i.e. the quads). Anyone got any thoughts or experience with this that they can help me with or even any other suggestions for any other makes?

[EBS_freak]

Your thinking is correct - a dual low is the minimum you want and will sound fantastic. Certainly a lot more controlled and expansive than your current (and I guess a whole lot more comfortable!)

More drivers will give you more headroom - however be aware that the quads, v6 and v8 all have different sound signatures so you may want to consider that also. Are you planning on buying on spec and rep rather than hearing? I would recommend you do hear as the variances between signatures can be quite pronounced.

Brandwise, 1964 I still think give the best value and performance for the money.

Tonyf runs with the V8 and he's stoked with them... to be honest, you can't go wrong - but I like lots of headroom and the fact that I don't have to push the drivers very hard... hence I like the driver count. That comes with a cost though - as you will have figured.

What system are you thinking of going for at this stage?

[mr zed]

Hi Russ, thanks for your reply.

I am in two minds whether to buy on spec & rep (based upon others opinions which is subjective) or whether to consider the 400 mile round trip to see Paul at the Headphone Company's premises.

Ideally I would like to hear all 3 to hear the different sound signatures but the travel time & cost is putting me off a bit. I could always visit Birmingham when he's next there I suppose which may be an option - still 200 miles though.

My wallet is telling me to go for the 1964 quads but I feel it's wrong to not seriously consider upgrading to the V6S or the V8.


[font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]I’d rather shell out some more money now for the right sound than regret not doing so later. Having said that, if I only get to hear the quads then I won’t know what I’m missing with the others. That nagging doubt will always be there though.[/color][/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#000000"]You know what, on reflection, I can’t make this decision without hearing all 3. Stand down. I’m off to see Paul![/color][/size][/font]

[EBS_freak]

That's the thing to do. I could say go for this or that but what I like may be well different to you. I'm a bit of a bass junkie and like to hear hyped bass. You may not. It's the classic in the JH line - jh13 or jh16. Both equally capable but bass junkies tend to go for he 16s and purists the 13! I'm guessing it will be similar with the v6 and v8 for most, although the sound signature of the 64s is different to the JH Audios.

So yeah, in short, if you don't want to plump and settle, make that trip!

Edited July 8, 2014 by EBS_freak

[Simon.]

Just to throw in an update on my IEM saga:

I spent a couple of week arguing the toss with my audiologist about that fact that if he's acting as an agent for ACS, then it's not unreasonable to expect him to have some knowledge about the product and be able to advise accordingly. Clearly the T3 was never going to be a good solution for what I was looking for, but they assured me it would be OK - and, lo and behold, it wasn't. I was then going to go down the 1964 Quad route, but between them ACS and my audiologist came up with a price for upgrading to the T1 which was less than switching to the 1964s.

After much too-ing and fro-ing, I finally picked up my set of ACS T1s yesterday, and they are everything the T3s were not!
Sound quality is, quite simply, lovely. Clarity and definition - I'm hearing things in songs I know well that I've never picked up on. Average listening volume is no more than 2/3rds of what it used to be with my old Sennheisers as well. Initially I thought they were still a bit bass light, but on reflection, I think the balance is just fine - more natural than striving for an artificial, bass heavy sound. The isolation is excellent too. Wandering around town with them in, I actually feel in danger from passing traffic because there is virtually no background noise leaking through, so you don't hear cars/people until they are really close to you! Tends to spook me out. Might take a bit of getting use to.

Have yet to get a chance to try them with my bass, but I have high hopes.

I would be tempted to try the 1964s if I ever decided to get another set - probably the V6s, for all the price difference there is between them and the Quads. However, for now, I have no complaints.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Simon.

[EBS_freak]

Ooh PSM 300s. I've spotted a few gotchas already... But they look interesting...

[sk8]

I'm looking to enter the IEM game cheaply at the moment to see how it goes.

This peaked my interest

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_iem_75_bundle.htm

But would I be better upping the funds and going for something like this?

http://www.thomann.de/gb/ld_systems_mei_1000_g2.htm

I can see the merits for the higher class systems but I need to prove the concept first!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='sk8' timestamp='1418382980' post='2629697']
I'm looking to enter the IEM game cheaply at the moment to see how it goes.

This peaked my interest

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_iem_75_bundle.htm

But would I be better upping the funds and going for something like this?

http://www.thomann.de/gb/ld_systems_mei_1000_g2.htm

I can see the merits for the higher class systems but I need to prove the concept first!
[/quote]

If you want to prove the concept, do it wired first. A lot of people are put off due to crappy rf systems and poor buds.

A decent set of in ears are key for bass and a lot of the low end systems don't do a good job in giving you a good low end and smooth top end. Couple crap buds with crap radio and you'll hate it. I guarantee. Ps don't bother with the shure psm200 - they are being discontinued so don't be tempted by knock down prices. They are pretty sh*te.

If you aren't wireless on your bass, contact obbm about his cable which carries a bass signal and IEM mix. If you are tethered by a bass cable, it's no big deal having that same cable route carry an IEM feed to your belt.

Try a practice with a wired setup and over the ear headphones (I appreciate not everybody wants to do the Paul Gilbert look) - the bass on over ears are generally better than in ear buds but will give you the experience of higher end custom moulds) to see if you want to make the leap and invest.

Remember, the key to a truly great monitor mix is a great (pref digital) desk, a great radio system (or wired - nothing beats wired in terms of quality) and probably most importantly, great isolating (pref custom moulded) in ear monitors with at least a quad set up with dual lows). Any compromise in any of these areas will be very noticeable.

If you haven't already, read through all of this thread. I believe it's the best source of info on the net about the subject.

[sk8]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1418492389' post='2630672'] If you want to prove the concept, do it wired first. A lot of people are put off due to crappy rf systems and poor buds. A decent set of in ears are key for bass and a lot of the low end systems don't do a good job in giving you a good low end and smooth top end. Couple crap buds with crap radio and you'll hate it. I guarantee. Ps don't bother with the shure psm200 - they are being discontinued so don't be tempted by knock down prices. They are pretty sh*te. If you aren't wireless on your bass, contact obbm about his cable which carries a bass signal and IEM mix. If you are tethered by a bass cable, it's no big deal having that same cable route carry an IEM feed to your belt. Try a practice with a wired setup and over the ear headphones (I appreciate not everybody wants to do the Paul Gilbert look) - the bass on over ears are generally better than in ear buds but will give you the experience of higher end custom moulds) to see if you want to make the leap and invest. Remember, the key to a truly great monitor mix is a great (pref digital) desk, a great radio system (or wired - nothing beats wired in terms of quality) and probably most importantly, great isolating (pref custom moulded) in ear monitors with at least a quad set up with dual lows). Any compromise in any of these areas will be very noticeable. If you haven't already, read through all of this thread. I believe it's the best source of info on the net about the subject. [/quote]

Cheers Russ. The wired idea makes a lot of sense. Guess I went straight to wireless as both me and the guitarist use wireless systems.