Advice Needed......shop bought returns

[4000]

On the 9th April I saw a gorgeous bass for sale on ebay; something that prompted me to put my Sei bass up for sale. The bass was an exceptional-looking Rickenbacker 4004 Cheyenne II, sold by Sound Affects in Ormskirk (who I wasn't familar with). The auction stated a 14 day return policy, no questions asked.

The auction had a "make an offer" facility, which I made use of whilst in my dinner time at work. When I got home I'd received an email counter offer with a note saying if I rang the shop they could do me a good price as they wouldn't be paying fees. It's at this point that it all appears to have fallen down.

At this point I'll add that I have pretty well documented physical problems (back/neck prolapsed discs & unstable shoulders with associated referred nerve problems in legs and arms). As some BC-ers will be aware, I had to get rid opf my custom RIM bass almost immediately after receiving it as it agggravated my problems. I also can't generally play basses with forearm contours for the same reasons. I'll add that I've had 12 or so 4000-type Rics in my time and never had a problem with any of them.

Back to the 4004; I thought about it and a couple of days later phoned back saying I would come to the shop to try the 2 x 4004s they had to see which worked best for me, given my above problems. Now I buy very little music gear over the internet and have never had to return anything I have bought (music gear or otherwise), so I wasn't aware that the 14 day policy only applied to internet sales. I assumed that it would apply whether I went to the shop or no; "14 day return policy, no questions asked", right?

So on the Saturday I went and tried the basses, taking a couple of my own for reference. Other than some niggling in my neck there didn't appear to be any real problems; I discussed my conditions (indeed we compared notes) and the reasons I have to try stuff with the manager, Tim. I liked the specific bass I'd first seen - it was far better than the other one - and bought it.

Unfortunately any nerve aggravation doesn't always show immediately and after a few days of playing (I don't tend to get much playing in during the week), lo and behold, the pain started. My left collarbone is now really bad and my right forearm is just searing; the same problem I had with my RIM.

So the other night, 8 days in, I emailed Tim to see if I could return the bass because of the problems it was causing me. "No" was the answer. When I asked why I was told they don't do return on shop bought items; it's shop policy and is stated in the shop. No mention of it on the internet auction that I initially responded to - remember [i]they[/i] directed me to contact the shop - no mention of it when I said I was coming to try the bass, no mention of it on my receipts. It may have said in the shop but I can't say I was looking at the time; a friend who gave me the lift down can't remember anything either, but it's not always the first thing you're looking for in a room full of nice guitars.

I told Tim the bass is exactly as it was when I bought it; it still has the sticker on etc and the cleaning cloth etc is still in the packet and hasn't been used. He said they simply can't accept shop bought returns, for accounting reasons. I'm somewhat annoyed that if I'd bought via the auction in the first place (even on a whim) and got them to deliver it I'd be able to return it no problem. If I'd bought it as a way to pass a lazy day, I'd be able to return it no problem. However because I actually took the effort to go to the shop, a shop I subsequently recommended to friends, it appears I'm stuffed, to use a technical term. Somehow I don't think the Bass Gallery would be taking the same stance.

What's doubly annoying is that no-one pointed out to me that the 14 day return would be invalidated if I visited the shop. I may be niaive in terms of distance buying and associated laws for reasons stated previously, but somehow this just doesn't seem right, if only from a customer service perspective.

So, I currently have a stunning Ric 4004, the nicest I've seen and by far the better of the two I played, which I simply can't play. Assuming I get no joy out of Sound Affects, it looks like I'll have to sell at a fair loss as I can't afford to have it around the house. My forearm suffered permanent damage with the RIM and I can't risk anything worsening. The upside - for someone - is that if I get no joy then it'll be up for sale soon and someone will doubtless grab a bargain; it really is stunning and sounds and plays great, with very light weight to boot. Now if only I could have that "uncomfortable" 4001 slab body and edge binding back....

[Geek99]

based on a quick reading , youre talking about the difference between distance selling and shop purchase.

Sales in person (the latter) are based upon an ability to examine the goods, ask questions and then accept or reject the offer sell based on that opportunity. You can always walk away from the shop. Some shops will allow you to return goods, but thats just goodwill.

The former allows cancellation as you dont get the chance to inspect [b]before [/b]you pay. I [b]believe [/b]that this also applies to purchases based on a phone description as well as electronic purchases from a business as they are similar. You didnt buy a specific item in advance (they had two, and you didnt pay up front) and you did get a chance to try it and to inspect. You made your special requirements known and they seem to have gone [i]some [/i]way towards accommodating you.

I dont think you have a legal case, but they should probably help you out based on good will.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Geek99

[Jellyfish]

Unfortunately, because you bought from the shop in person, the doesn't have to accept the return as it is a non-faulty item.

You're right, from a customer service perspective it doesn't seem right, but it's allowed. The best thing to do would have been to ask them what their policy or terms and conditions were as they have to stick to them. If their terms and conditions are no refunds on non-faulty items then so be it. But I can see that it was easy to get caught out, really unfortunate.

The only thing you can really do is be as nice as possible (as I'm sure you have been already) and give them a ring or perhaps visit them and hope that they offer to take it back as a good will gesture.

[Coilte]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1366720659' post='2056355']

I dont think you have a legal case, but they should probably help you out based on good will.
[/quote]

While I am not an expert on these affairs, on a casual reading of the OP's post, this would be my opinion also.

[Geek99]

I have a fairly recent law degree, but I'm a but rusty. Correct me where I'm wrong above.


I think it may have been different if you'd asked them in person to extend those 14 day terms to you based on your unique issues and the understanding that the item would be kept in as-new condition until you were certain you wanted it. A mini rental, if you will

Edited April 23, 2013 by Geek99

[bagsieblue]

[sup][size=3][size=4]Geek99 is right - this is a "Change Of Mind" and as there is nothing 'wrong' with the bass then you'd struggle to get a refund.[/size][/size][/sup]
[sup][size=3][size=4]Playing Devils Advocate the shop have asked you to make direct contact as it would have been a better deal for you both.[/size][/size][/sup]
[sup][size=3][size=4]I am also not sure if they would be allowed to take the bass back and sell it as new again - I assume they would have to sell it as shop returned / pre owned etc and have to take a hit on the price.[/size][/size][/sup]

[sup][size=3][size=4]As you bought in person you are not covered by the Distance Selling Regs of Mail Order / Internet Sales etc.[/size][/size][/sup]

[sup][size=3][size=4]You would only have course to a refund if you had discussed return and refund with them before - therefore making it a term of the agreement you had with them.[/size][/size][/sup]
[sup][size=3][size=4]I see that there may be a grey area as you could argue the transaction started online (= 14 day No Quibble return and refund) but was then completed in person (store not willing to return on change of mind).[/size][/size][/sup]
[sup][size=3][size=4]You [i]may [/i]be able to appeal to their customer sevice / goodwill on this, it doesn't really help for a store to pee off their customers - especially a Music Store that would like to rely on reputation and repeat business.[/size][/size][/sup]
[sup][size=3][size=4]I think you best bet will be to appeal to them and see what's the best outcome you could get.[/size][/size][/sup]

[bagsieblue]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1366721425' post='2056370']
I have a fairly recent law degree, but I'm a but rusty. Correct me where I'm wrong above.


I think it may have been different if you'd asked them in person to extend those 14 day terms to you based on your unique issues and the understanding that the item would be kept in as-new condition until you were certain you wanted it. A mini rental, if you will
[/quote]

Agreed - unless you had specifically asked and agreed and it therefore became a part of your contract with the shop then you only have your Statutory Rights to rely on, which a "Change Of Mind" does not cover.

[bagsieblue]

[quote name='Jellyfish' timestamp='1366720844' post='2056358']
Unfortunately, because you bought from the shop in person, the doesn't have to accept the return as it is a non-faulty item.

You're right, from a customer service perspective it doesn't seem right, but it's allowed. The best thing to do would have been to ask them what their policy or terms and conditions were as they have to stick to them. If their terms and conditions are no refunds on non-faulty items then so be it. But I can see that it was easy to get caught out, really unfortunate.

The only thing you can really do is be as nice as possible (as I'm sure you have been already) and give them a ring or perhaps visit them and hope that they offer to take it back as a good will gesture.
[/quote]

JellyFish - I think I've seen elsewhere on here you work in a Music Shop.
What is your opinion of if the shop is able then to sell the bass as new (again) if it was returned?

[Geek99]

Think also shop is right about accountancy - they charge vat on the sold item but its different when they're buying a used item back or into stock

You could try going back and asking them to do you a deal based on an allowance on the bass you bought against another one you try for for a bit and CAN live with. That way they don't lose a sale or a customer

[timmo]

Perhaps they would exchange for a credit note if that would work for you

[icastle]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1366720082' post='2056344']
When I got home I'd received an email counter offer with a note saying if I rang the shop they could do me a good price as they wouldn't be paying fees.
[/quote]

If you call it 'helping to maintain your reputation with Ebay', there's your answer.

[iconic]

You could ask if they would be prepared to take the bass back and for you to make them a payment in return for re-stocking a now 'used item/pre-owned/second-hand' call it what you will, bass.

.....obviously this is going to cost you money but you then again, you don't have the hassle of selling the bass on the open market?


just a thought.

Edited April 23, 2013 by iconic

[4000]

Thanks for the input guys. I've just spoken to the shop and whilst they would be prepared to take the instrument back as used, I'd take a massive hit on the bass, almost half what it cost, so that's no use to me.

I'd just like to clarify that Tim has been very helpful and sympathetic over the phone and my issue is in no way meant to reflect on him; apologies if my frustrations make it seem that way. In a sense it seems that the law is backwards in terms of protecting the distance buyer over and above the shop buyer, the opposite of what most shops would want. I've effectively been hoist by my own petard; my need to try the bass due to my conditions has totally backfired, especially seeing as the problems I was worried about didn't surface until later. Ironic when I could've ordered it on the internet, played half a dozen gigs with it and then sent it back without any reason whatsoever. I guess I should have asked about the returns policy, but it just didn't occur. 'No questions' remember?

Ah well, keep your eyes peeled; you should - barring a miracle cure - be seeing a stunning, highly figured (lots of flame etc), brand-new-in-all-but-name 4004 for sale at a bargain price some time in the next few days. The longer I keep it the more likely I am to to try and work through the problem and as I found out with the RIM, doing so is generally NOT be a good idea.

BTW, icastle, that did occur to me but that's not a route I'd really want to go down.

Here are pics as a taster........the yellower ones are with flash, the others in low natural light.

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5012_zps7156f5b4.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5011_zpsfdb1c21c.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5045_zpsd816e604.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5019_zps4da03ebb.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5030_zps703dc75b.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_4998_zps5461bd07.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_4996_zps74fec244.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5046_zpsa60f02c4.jpg.html"][/url]

[dannybuoy]

Were there any other basses in the shop you liked the look of? They may be more willing to swap you for another bass as that way they don't lose out on a sale.

[Geek99]

Suggested above
Shop losing a lot as item now used.

[4000]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1366734301' post='2056611']
Were there any other basses in the shop you liked the look of? They may be more willing to swap you for another bass as that way they don't lose out on a sale.
[/quote]



No, sadly. There are very few basses I can play these days; things with small bodies (like my Seis) and Rick 4001s seem to be about it. I've got 2 vintage 4001s which I adore and I don't really like the 4003 as much. They only appear to stock Rickenbacker and Hofner, bass-wise. Oh, and Fender, but i can't play those due to the ergonomics.

The only problem I have with the 4004 seems to be the fact that it's actually more contoured (and so for most people more comfortable); I can only think that because I learned to play on a slab-bodied, bound 4001 somehow my body has adapted to that and that has remained the case despite my current ailments. A Fender Jazz for instance just kills me.

It's doubly distressing as the SEi I sold was such a great bass and so comfortable, but then at least it's gone to a good home. If I do sell this then I'll be straight down to Mr Petersen's Bass Emporium - which ironically was going to be my next stop before I saw this 4004 - for a [i]comfortable[/i] custom build.

[mushers]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1366734301' post='2056611']
Were there any other basses in the shop you liked the look of? They may be more willing to swap you for another bass as that way they don't lose out on a sale.
[/quote]

thats definitely worth a try

[Geek99]

Suggested above
Shop losing a lot as item now used.

[bertbass]

Are you sure that it's working OK? Didn't I read somewhere that wires are prone to come adrift due to bad soldering making the bass not fit for purpose?

[4000]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1366736725' post='2056660']
Are you sure that it's working OK? Didn't I read somewhere that wires are prone to come adrift due to bad soldering making the bass not fit for purpose?
[/quote]

Er, have you read any of my posts? It's working perfectly. Because of specific medical problems I have I'm struggling with the ergonomics (i.e. shape and contouring) , not the electronics.

That's got to be a possible contender for most random post ever...

Edited April 23, 2013 by 4000

[mushers]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1366738693' post='2056687']
Er, have you read any of my posts? It's working perfectly. Because of specific medical problems I have I'm struggling with the ergonomics (i.e. shape and contouring) , not the electronics.

That's got to be a possible contender for most random post ever...
[/quote]
i think it may have an idea for option for a way out if the bass faulty, i could be very wrong but i wouldnt recommend it though bad Karma and all that

[Dad3353]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1366738693' post='2056687']
Er, have you read any of my posts? It's working perfectly. Because of specific medical problems I have I'm struggling with the ergonomics (i.e. shape and contouring) , not the electronics.

That's got to be a possible contender for most random post ever...
[/quote]

I think that the post was a sly 'nudge, nudge' hint for getting the bass returned for a provoked 'fault'. This would be dishonest, and immoral; certainly not BC-worthy. Nice try, though. Should have had a smiley of sorts, perhaps..?

[Dingus]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1366733649' post='2056596']
Thanks for the input guys. I've just spoken to the shop and whilst they would be prepared to take the instrument back as used, I'd take a massive hit on the bass, almost half what it cost, so that's no use to me.

I'd just like to clarify that Tim has been very helpful and sympathetic over the phone and my issue is in no way meant to reflect on him; apologies if my frustrations make it seem that way. In a sense it seems that the law is backwards in terms of protecting the distance buyer over and above the shop buyer, the opposite of what most shops would want. I've effectively been hoist by my own petard; my need to try the bass due to my conditions has totally backfired, especially seeing as the problems I was worried about didn't surface until later. Ironic when I could've ordered it on the internet, played half a dozen gigs with it and then sent it back without any reason whatsoever. I guess I should have asked about the returns policy, but it just didn't occur. 'No questions' remember?

Ah well, keep your eyes peeled; you should - barring a miracle cure - be seeing a stunning, highly figured (lots of flame etc), brand-new-in-all-but-name 4004 for sale at a bargain price some time in the next few days. The longer I keep it the more likely I am to to try and work through the problem and as I found out with the RIM, doing so is generally NOT be a good idea.

BTW, icastle, that did occur to me but that's not a route I'd really want to go down.

Here are pics as a taster........the yellower ones are with flash, the others in low natural light.

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5012_zps7156f5b4.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5011_zpsfdb1c21c.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5045_zpsd816e604.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5019_zps4da03ebb.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5030_zps703dc75b.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_4998_zps5461bd07.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_4996_zps74fec244.jpg.html"][/url]

[url="http://s290.photobucket.com/user/josten72/media/IMG_5046_zpsa60f02c4.jpg.html"][/url]
[/quote]

This is a [u]very [/u]beautiful bass - absolutely stunning , in fact , and just about the nicest Rickenbacker I have ever seen . Unfortunately , as others have already pointed out , if you buy something in person from a shop the law says a deal is a deal , unless the retailer agrees otherwise . I would think you will be able to shift it without too much trouble , albeit with a slight knock in terms of what you paid for it . Try not to blame yourself too much ; the assumption you made is a fairly common mistake for people to make in the current age of internet shopping . I had a similar situation with a computer I bought a few years ago but eventually managed to get a refund because it was an employee of the company who gave me inaccurate advice about the refunds policy .

Edited April 23, 2013 by Dingus

[Musicman20]

Unfortunately, this is the way things work with shop bought items. This is why I won't travel/stay over and pay to try gear for ten minutes, to go back and have no real return policy.

A lot of shops 'may' suggest you pop in as a way to get around the Distance Selling Regs. That would be a cynical view. It could also be that they wanted you to see it, try it, and sell you it cheaper. Either way, that is STUNNING. Seriously stunning.

In fact...I absolutely want it! Hahah

[mcnach]

I apologise for my non helpful post, but I had to add that I am not a fan of Rics... but that bass looks AMAZING. wow.