II-V-I practice routines?

[project_c]

I need a bit of input from you guys about practising II-V-I's. I want to start practising everything in all 12 keys, and am wondering how you go about doing this in the context of a II-V-I excercise.

Do you improvise all the way through, or do you learn specific lines, and practise them over all 12 keys to get them into your brain / muscle memory etc? (If you've been playing for 30 years, you will probably improvise, but think back to a time when you still needed to study this stuff).

I read somewhere on a jazz blog that a good way to expand one's vocabulary is to learn specific lines relating to specific changes, and then run them over all keys until you've memorised them. The blog suggested learning about 10 different ways to approach a set of changes, and then practising them over all 12 keys. Is there such a thing as a '10 most common basslines' over a II-V-I?

I know the answer is in the music, I listen to a lot of jazz standards, but the variety of tunes, and interpretations of tunes is bewildering, and from a jazz outsider's point of view, it's difficult to know what tunes, and what basslines within those tunes, one should prioritise and study..

[jakenewmanbass]

I guess it depends on what you want to sound like, if you learn a ton of licks you'll sound like you know a ton of licks. If you learn to improvise properly so that you can play your ideas then it will sound less lick orientated. The difficulty is that to really absorb the idiom you need to know a lot of phrases and generic sounds, so in some ways you might need to pass through the 'lick' stage on your way to coming out the other end sounding like you have valid ideas and are able to execute them.
It also depends on whether you are talking about walking through changes or soloing, if you can't yet produce a stonking walking bass line on II V I changes then there is your starting point.

So to answer your question directly, when walking through changes, I know a lot of conventions but I like to try and hear (therefore execute) new ideas.

[project_c]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1366741419' post='2056728']
I guess it depends on what you want to sound like, if you learn a ton of licks you'll sound like you know a ton of licks. If you learn to improvise properly so that you can play your ideas then it will sound less lick orientated. The difficulty is that to really absorb the idiom you need to know a lot of phrases and generic sounds, so in some ways you might need to pass through the 'lick' stage on your way to coming out the other end sounding like you have valid ideas and are able to execute them.
[/quote]


Thanks, from what I've learnt I think the internalised knowledge of conventions, common phrases and licks is fundamental to improvisation with both walking and soloing. My concern is mainly with walking at the moment - I can come up with walking basslines without too much trouble but I'm bored with my own lines and feel like there's a lack of vocabulary which limits me. This is why I wondered if there's a '10 most common II-V-I lines' that seasoned players have internalised over the years. Something to expand my vocabulary.

[Faithless]

If you want to learn to walk over changes in an logical, step-by-step manner, I can't recommend enough the "Walking Basslines" by Joe Hubbard - that book is everything you need to know about walking.

[project_c]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1366751524' post='2056976']
If you want to learn to walk over changes in an logical, step-by-step manner, I can't recommend enough the "Walking Basslines" by Joe Hubbard - that book is everything you need to know about walking.
[/quote]

I ordered this book a few days ago and haven't received anything, no response to my emails either so I'm not sure what's up, I might need to get paypal to refund. Shame because it looked pretty good.

[Faithless]

That's a bit weird. It's possible that the shipment of the eBook is not automatic - it has to be approved by Joe himself, who, as I know, is very busy with his new video bass lessons site at the moment, so he might have missed your order by an accident.
That book is too good to be missed, so If I were you, I'd shoot him an email to [email protected] - I'm sure he'll reply within the matter of hours or a day maybe.

hang in there!
Laimis

Edited April 26, 2013 by Faithless

[louisthebass]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1366994531' post='2060125']
That's a bit weird. It's possible that the shipment of the eBook is not automatic - it has to be approved by Joe himself, who, as I know, is very busy with his new video bass lessons site at the moment, so he might have missed your order by an accident.
That book is too good to be missed, so If I were you, I'd shoot him an email to [email protected] - I'm sure he'll reply within the matter of hours or a day maybe.

hang in there!
Laimis
[/quote]

Just to add, Joe's also a member on here as well (JoeHubbardbass) - might be worth a PM?

[Faithless]

I wouldnt bother with PM's, he doesnt visit BC too often, unless he posts stuff of his own - that email I've thrown is your best bet.

easy
L

[project_c]

I emailed him earlier and I have the book now, thanks guys. Looks very good actually! Time to get stuck in..

[Wylie]

[quote name='project_c' timestamp='1366737296' post='2056669']
I need a bit of input from you guys about practising II-V-I's. I want to start practising everything in all 12 keys, and am wondering how you go about doing this in the context of a II-V-I excercise.

Do you improvise all the way through, or do you learn specific lines, and practise them over all 12 keys to get them into your brain / muscle memory etc? (If you've been playing for 30 years, you will probably improvise, but think back to a time when you still needed to study this stuff).

I read somewhere on a jazz blog that a good way to expand one's vocabulary is to learn specific lines relating to specific changes, and then run them over all keys until you've memorised them. The blog suggested learning about 10 different ways to approach a set of changes, and then practising them over all 12 keys. Is there such a thing as a '10 most common basslines' over a II-V-I?

I know the answer is in the music, I listen to a lot of jazz standards, but the variety of tunes, and interpretations of tunes is bewildering, and from a jazz outsider's point of view, it's difficult to know what tunes, and what basslines within those tunes, one should prioritise and study..
[/quote]

I have been running the ii-V-I by playing through various modal scales associated with the home key throughout the run of measures. For example, if the I chord/key is Gmaj, I might explore using A Dorian or B Phyrgian to play over the changes to its resolution. I haven't found that memorization of specific runs helps me much. The great thing about the modal scales is their interconnected nature, which makes improvisation easy (once you're got the modal scale patterns down, which doesn't take long). You can also improvise over the third, fifth or seventh of the I chord/key.

Regarding music to listen to or play with, because my group gets together so seldom, I have bought some download play-alongs from PlayJazzNow.com; one that they offer features a series of ii-V-I progressions, played fairly slowly. These are designed for horn players, for the most part, but you can turn the bass down and play along with the comping. These are very helpful, and quite cheap.

W.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Wylie

[D.I. Joe]

Scott Devine has a downloadable backing tack bundle in all 12 keys [url="http://scottsbasslessons.com/backing-tracks-bass"]here[/url].

[Hector]

A nice way to provide a sense of motion through a ii-V-I is to use guide tones: [url="http://www.simonpurcell.com/media/GuideTonesforImp.pdf"]http://www.simonpurc...TonesforImp.pdf[/url] (page 3 is wicked, some of those chromatic resolutions are really nice, and provide a good sense of motion through tension and resolution)

You could also try using some chord tone enclosures: [url="http://www.simonpurcell.com/media/C.pdf"]http://www.simonpurc...com/media/C.pdf[/url]

Edited May 8, 2013 by Hector

[project_c]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I'm slowly working my way through Joe Hubbard's book, (as recommended by Faithless a few posts up). It's taking me a while because I'm practicing everything in there in all 12 keys, but so far it all makes sense and seems to be pretty good.

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1368015441' post='2072028']
A nice way to provide a sense of motion through a ii-V-I is to use guide tones: [url="http://www.simonpurcell.com/media/GuideTonesforImp.pdf"]http://www.simonpurc...TonesforImp.pdf[/url] (page 3 is wicked, some of those chromatic resolutions are really nice, and provide a good sense of motion through tension and resolution)

You could also try using some chord tone enclosures: [url="http://www.simonpurcell.com/media/C.pdf"]http://www.simonpurc...com/media/C.pdf[/url]
[/quote]


This looks really interesting, I'll have a read through, cheers for posting.

Also while I'm here, I have a couple of recommendations for help with practising jazz, I'm sure most of you know about this already but if not, check out an app called iRealB ( http://www.irealb.com). It's not free, but it's dirt cheap for what it does, and the user forum has every jazz standard ready for download, for free. I strongly recommend it, it's more versatile than any backing track and it sounds excellent (for jazz, anyway). The second is a free app called MuseScore (http://musescore.org). The combination of these 2 apps has made practicing jazz a whole lot easier for me. One of them gives you a backing track, the other allows you to write out whatever line you're studying and transpose it to any key without any fuss. I used to do both of these things manually in Logic Pro in the past and they took up a huge amount of my practice time, which is limited at the best of times. I've been using both for months, they were definitely a good addition to my practice routine.