Function band vs integrity ramblings

[Bilbo]

I guess my point is this:

Weddings is weddings - play the gig, do the first dance she wants (trust me, he don't give a s***), play to the crowd, get 'em up dancin' etc etc.

Shows - you gotta play the dots. Simple as.

The problem I have, I guess, is with 'the scene' as a whole, with the way things are going generally. Most of the gigs I see advertised (and most of the bands I play in) are bands doing ALL covers (I have no problem including jazz standards in this, they are covers, dress it up as much as you like). Not a problem in itself. But when you/I/one looks for something fresh and creative, its hard to find anything. When I started out in a HM band, we did the whole gig without stopping (none of this two sets with a break stuff), did 95% originals and, wihlst we DID do covers, it was two tunes which were heavily arranged (a Led Zep medley (2 tunes) and Hawkwind's 'Silver Machine'). In the 80s and 90s, I used to play in jazz trios/quartets etc where we played 90% originals and threw in a few standards. Its not the concept of covers that bothers me, its this overwhelming excess!

I struggle with the idea that tribute bands are not covers bands - of course they ARE! And this thnig about dressing to LOOK like the band that is being copied is excruciating!

The last time the scene felt this tired, Punk happened. I hated it but (and I can't believe I am saying this) I wish it would happen again. It sparked off a decade or more of creativity, most of which I didn't like but at least it was MEANT something! RECLAIM THE STREETS!!

[chris_b]

[quote name='steantval' post='212283' date='Jun 4 2008, 08:43 AM']....the Bay City Rollers , it's pretty sad you have to bring that garbage into the discussion. I'm suprised someone who contributes to this site has pictures of them....[/quote]
It's only my opinion, but your opinion that they are garbage is a bit harsh. So a lot of people don't like the Bay City Rollers (me included) but millions thought they were very good and in their target market they were very successful. Good on 'em.

[Huggy and the Bears]

[quote name='chris_b' post='212320' date='Jun 4 2008, 09:37 AM']It's only my opinion, but your opinion that they are garbage is a bit harsh. So a lot of people don't like the Bay City Rollers (me included) but millions thought they were very good and in their target market they were very successful. Good on 'em.[/quote]

Wow! Ive just spent ages working through this thread and the common denominator throughout is passion! I play in a band that plays a mix of covers and original stuff, however, I did not write our original tunes so really, I'm covering someone elses music. I tend to think of playing your own stuff as 'the good life' ie Tom and Barbara - if you can manage that lifestyle, I think you have it made and that would probably be my fantasy, however in my world, I need to work and be in the rat race which includes playing other peoples music and buying food from the supermarket. It's good food but I can't get the satisfaction from growing it myself, however I cook it well!

In terms of function bands - I live near Blackpool where the bread and butter of work is functions etc. Ive worked with such talented people in these situations and I would not swap those experiences for anything - regardless of the tunes played. Interstingly I think it is about keeping function sets fresh. If you go to some parts of Spain for example (in my experience and stereotyping), the hotel entertainment is often similar to every other hotel in town i.e. some duo playing a Bontempi style keyboard knocking out 70's and 80's pop. To me it seems like some musical architect in 1971 set the blueprint in Spain for holiday entertainment and that model is still used today. It is extremely tired and dated but it fits a genre that has been around for years.

What we as musicians need to ensure is that we don't create a 'function band genre' that becomes trapped in a dated, cliched timewarp. That would be a travesty for all including the punters. I think its all about values, beliefs, epistemology and our individual cultures. Its good to have contrasting sub-cultures in music as long as they are not counter productive or harmful. I like the opinions expressed here! Keep them coming!
Simon.

[Mrs Tinman]

[quote name='steantval' post='212283' date='Jun 4 2008, 08:43 AM']but the Bay City Rollers .........I'm suprised someone who contributes to this site has pictures of them[/quote]

Yep, OG keeps his special collection of BCR pics at the ready, just in case an opportunity should present itself to sneak them into a thread

C'mon now Si, get out yer tartan and sing along.......'Well we sang Shang a Lang........... '

[ianrunci]

I think refering to MOR pop songs as garbage is ridiculous, a lot of them are much more technical and difficult to play than stuff by most of todays modern rock bands.

I would get much more enjoyment out of playing wake me up by wham than something simple and boring like basket case or I predict a riot.

My cover band play all kinds of "so called cheese" including, Spandau Ballet, Robbie Williams & Barry White etc but one mans cheese is another mans masterpiece.

We do a lot of soul and mowton, I don't see anything cheesy about that. We also do a set of Indie/modern rock including The Killers, Franz Ferdinand, Greenday etc etc but personally I hate this stuff, its simple and numbingly boring to play. However, there are lots of people who like this stuff but I wouldn't call this cheese either

[ianrunci]

[quote name='steantval' post='212004' date='Jun 3 2008, 06:51 PM']I have played in cover bands for most of my musical "career".

I have a full time job and playing bass in bands is my passion, money is not the reason, so I play the stuff I like.

[b]No way could I play the middle of the road/chart numbers for these corporate functions, but totally understand why some folks have to do it for the money.[/b]
I'm here to defend the good quality cover bands, I know there's alot of s*ite out there, I've seen them, I don't know how they can call themselves musicians and expect venues to pay them!!

I believe the songs should be played as close to the original as possible or don't bother at all.

I feel that playing numbers from different bands/bass styles/time signatures stretches my ability on an ongoing basis, whereas the majority of players in original bands only play safe within their sometimes very limited ability.

I spotted a bass player in an originals band a fortnight ago playing a right handed bass upside down, for f*cks sake, just buy a proper left handed one and get on with it.

Your comments would be welcome.[/quote]

Why would you think people only play them for the money? and what would you consider to be "Good Covers" to play?

[Huggy and the Bears]

[quote name='Mrs Tinman' post='212375' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:19 AM']Yep, OG keeps his special collection of BCR pics at the ready, just in case an opportunity should present itself to sneak them into a thread

C'mon now Si, get out yer tartan and sing along.......'Well we sang Shang a Lang........... ' [/quote]

Hey as a kid I actually liked the Bay City Rollers as my sisters were into them and used to bring their pals round to listen to them. They were all 3 years older than me and by knowing the words to them got me in the gang! Whoo hoo... good days!

So Mrs. Tinman, I'm game for anything!

[chardbass]

I can't be choosy about what I play- its my main source of income.
I've got bills to pay, a car to run and I want a holiday just like the next man.
I have to play some of the biggest dross known to man and have done for 20 years- the point is, I have always played my bass with conviction and with the music in mind.
I've never been a 2-handed tapper or mega slapper but with the right mix and drummer I can shake walls and make girls smile

[Mrs Tinman]

[quote name='Huggy and the Bears' post='212428' date='Jun 4 2008, 12:38 PM']So Mrs. Tinman, I'm game for anything![/quote]

Oooh, now there's an offer :brow:

[Bilbo]

With respect to ianrunci, a great, complex and technically demanding bass line does not make a song great. Nor does a simple, 'boring' bass line make a song boring. Its a complex relationship between harmony, melody, rhythm, arrangement, timbres, lyrical content etc etc.

'Wake Me Up' may have a 'great' bass line but, as a whole, its still bubblegum. Pino may have ripped it up on 'Lady In Red' but I won't be rushing to iTunes to snap it up! I have said the same about a lot of James Jamerson's stuff. I worked through half of 'In The Shadows Of Motown' before realising that, whatever the merits of his lines (and they are 'interesting'), the songs they related to were pretty naff (IMO, obviously, before accuses me of lacking objectivity). So I stopped. A great groove or a great bass line is like the chassis on a car; whatever its merits, its only part of the whole picture. My problem with covers bands is, whatever their merits, they are artistically superfluous! Like photocopies of a piece of artwork.

Don't mean I won' t play them, gain some limited degree of pleasure froim the process and take the money but, as I said, its a shallow victory.

I know I am an idealist but it helps me cope with the world!

Edited June 4, 2008 by bilbo230763

[ianrunci]

Bubblegum?

but then again thats down to personal taste isn't it? As I said one mans cheese is another mans masterpiece. Personally I can't stand any of the new rock music thats about (Artic Monkeys, Zutons, Kaisers etc ect) to me it all sounds like rehashed punk done badly but to other people it obviously has its merits.

Original bands are great and there should be more of them.

Like I said, not everyone wants to write and perform original music and to me that doesn't mean their artistry is superfluous. Their art comes in the way they translate thier own view of a particular line. A prime example of this is when well known bands recruit a new musician eg: Steve Morse with Deep Purple. Would you say that his versions of the old material are artisticly superfluous?

Its all relative to any one individuals point of view

[Bilbo]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='212471' date='Jun 4 2008, 01:39 PM']Bubblegum?

but then again thats down to personal taste isn't it? As I said one mans cheese is another mans masterpiece. Personally I can't stand any of the new rock music thats about (Artic Monkeys, Zutons, Kaisers etc ect) to me it all sounds like rehashed punk done badly but to other people it obviously has its merits.

Original bands are great and there should be more of them.

Like I said, not everyone wants to write and perform original music and to me that doesn't mean their artistry is superfluous. Their art comes in the way they translate thier own view of a particular line. A prime example of this is when well known bands recruit a new musician eg: Steve Morse with Deep Purple. Would you say that his versions of the old material are artisticly superfluous?

Its all relative to any one individuals point of view[/quote]

I would class the Kaiser Chiefs & the Zutons etc as another form of shallow nonsense but that's not my point (most rock music is as corporately sponsored as most other bubblegum music; the fans hate to acknowledge it because they like to think their artists have integrity but the 'brand' that is Marilyn Manson is as much a 'product' as the Kaiser Chiefs). My criticism is of OTHER PEOPLE playing the Kaiser Chiefs material.

Steve Morse in Deep Purple is still Deep Purple doing Deep Purple material and their decisions regarding arrangements are their own so I won't criticise them for it. But if Steve Morse left and started a band called 'Smokey and the Waters' doing a DP tribute, he would go down in my estimation!

[Huggy and the Bears]

[quote name='Mrs Tinman' post='212438' date='Jun 4 2008, 12:56 PM']Oooh, now there's an offer :brow:[/quote]

I guess it is isn't it!

[OldGit]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='212295' date='Jun 4 2008, 09:10 AM']Seeing as you mention that particular track, I have to agree that's one where the bass player MUST stick to the original bass line, especially beneath the guitar solo. That has to be one of the best-known and best-loved bass riffs in history, and every time I hear that song played without the matching bass riff it just sounds pants.[/quote]


Ah yes .. There are exceptions and that is clearly one.
I was most disappointed to hear the Paul Rogers/Queen combo do All Right Now (and various other Free/Bad Co numbers) with the "wrong" drum parts, especially the bass drum.
It is so inextricably linked with the rhythm of the vocal, bass and guitar that playing it differently just wrecked the whole track for me.

Judge for yourself
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x9M3ZuPFDc&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x9M3ZuPFDc...feature=related[/url]

Edited June 4, 2008 by OldGit

[ianrunci]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='212484' date='Jun 4 2008, 01:57 PM']I would class the Kaiser Chiefs & the Zutons etc as another form of shallow nonsense but that's not my point (most rock music is as corporately sponsored as most other bubblegum music; the fans hate to acknowledge it because they like to think their artists have integrity but the 'brand' that is Marilyn Manson is as much a 'product' as the Kaiser Chiefs). My criticism is of OTHER PEOPLE playing the Kaiser Chiefs material.

Steve Morse in Deep Purple is still Deep Purple doing Deep Purple material and their decisions regarding arrangements are their own so I won't criticise them for it. But if Steve Morse left and started a band called 'Smokey and the Waters' doing a DP tribute, he would go down in my estimation![/quote]

So where does that leave us then? we have all pop and rock music which is shallow nonsense, Classical music which is mostly people playing covers, and Jazz music which is mostly people playing covers and a few people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it aventgarde. So whats left that actually has any integrity at all?

[Tinman]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='212493' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:08 PM']Jazz music which is mostly people playing covers and a few people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it aventgarde.[/quote]

Oh mate, plus the one!

[Huggy and the Bears]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='212493' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:08 PM']So where does that leave us then? we have all pop and rock music which is shallow nonsense, Classical music which is mostly people playing covers, and Jazz music which is mostly people playing covers and a few people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it aventgarde. So whats left that actually has any integrity at all?[/quote]

Well regardless of what i'm singing/playing, I sincerely mean it and it is always from the heart. I think its great that we all have diverse views and opinions. The bottom line is is that it is all art, be it original or a copy. Not all of us have access to or can create original art. If we want to make out that there are degrees of being an artist then i think that is being a bit fickle and pedantic.

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='OldGit' post='212488' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:03 PM']Ah yes .. There are exceptions and that is clearly one.
I was most disappointed to hear the Paul Rogers/Queen combo do All Right Now (and various other Free/Bad Co numbers) with the "wrong" drum parts, especially the bass drum.
It is so inextricably linked with the rhythm of the vocal, bass and guitar that playing it differently just wrecked the whole track for me.

Judge for yourself
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x9M3ZuPFDc&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x9M3ZuPFDc...feature=related[/url][/quote]

I agree - that is a truly nauseating clip. Sadly, I don't think Roger Taylor is or ever will be in the same league as Simon Kirke, but that's little excuse for murdering a classic song like Alright Now.

On the other hand, I suppose you have to accept that, as Paul Rodgers co-wrote it (I think!!), he's more entitled than most to do with it as he likes.

By way of comparison, here is Free doing the same track:

[url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2B2clFsLA3w"]FreeAlrightNow[/url]

Even this is a slight departure from the original, but certainly in the same spirit as far as I'm concerned.

[OldGit]

[quote name='steantval' post='212283' date='Jun 4 2008, 08:43 AM']I knew Hendrix would be brought up (I nearly mentioned it in my original comments), but the Bay City Rollers , it's pretty sad you have to bring that garbage into the discussion.
I'm suprised someone who contributes to this site has pictures of them, my little sister used to have posters of them on her bedroom wall in the seventies.[/quote]

Ha ha... Nice one.
I'm going to assume you are trolling as someone playing a right handed instrument upside down has little relevance to this, or my ability to type "bay city rollers" into a google image search .......

Edited June 4, 2008 by OldGit

[OldGit]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='212506' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:21 PM']By way of comparison, here is Free doing the same track:

[url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2B2clFsLA3w"]FreeAlrightNow[/url]

Even this is a slight departure from the original, but certainly in the same spirit as far as I'm concerned. [/quote]


Excellent film, that.
I think Free's capability to "do it like the record" was largely dependant on Kossof's prevailing blood/chemical ratio...

[OldGit]

[quote name='Mrs Tinman' post='212375' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:19 AM']C'mon now Si, get out yer tartan and sing along.......'Well we sang Shang a Lang........... ' [/quote]


Got me thinking now ... next kilt wearing wedding gig we do I may sneak it in when the band's not looking Priobably do a cumberland square 4 to it

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='OldGit' post='212524' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:39 PM']Got me thinking now ... next kilt wearing wedding gig we do I may sneak it in when the band's not looking Priobably do a cumberland square 4 to it [/quote]
Last Time I wore a kilt on a gig I went all traditional and didn't bring (or wear) any undies to the gig. On arrival I found that the band leader had only been able to acquire mini skirts in tartan. The nick name Jake the peg came into context...

Edited June 4, 2008 by jakesbass

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='OldGit' post='212517' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:32 PM']Excellent film, that.
I think Free's capability to "do it like the record" was largely dependant on Kossof's prevailing blood/chemical ratio...[/quote]

Indeed, although I think "[b]chemical/blood[/b]" ratio might be more appropriate.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='212493' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:08 PM']So where does that leave us then? we have all pop and rock music which is shallow nonsense, Classical music which is mostly people playing covers, and Jazz music which is mostly people playing covers and a few people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it aventgarde. So whats left that actually has any integrity at all?[/quote]

Some of the other web-sites where I can frequently be found keep a note of particularly fine postings, with a view to having a [b][i]Post Of The Year (PotY)[/b][/i] Award at Xmas.

I hereby (1) propose the creation of said [b]PotY[/b] Award, (2) suggest that a Moderator immediately volunteer for the task of keeping a file running, and (3) nominate the above post for this year's award.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='212493' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:08 PM']So where does that leave us then? we have all pop and rock music which is shallow nonsense, Classical music which is mostly people playing covers, and Jazz music which is mostly people playing covers and a few people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it aventgarde. So whats left that actually has any integrity at all?[/quote]

Errr.... that's my point. If its all covers, the whole thing dies, pop, classical, jazz, country, zydeco, reggae, folk.... all dead.

There IS a lot of creative music out there, even some people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it avant-garde, but it rarely gets an outing because of all these covers bands clogging up the gigs!

Let me make a point. I do a regular jazz gig in Bury St Edmunds, been doing it for 4 years. We do covers under the guise of jazz standards and, due to the generally conservative tastes of the bandleader, most of what we do is not particularly challenging. Our audience are not really listening; they look over in our direction once in a while and occasionally clap politely but it is what many call 'background music'. The standards we play are mostly the obvious Top 100 (the jazzers out there will know what I mean) but this audience demographic wouldn't know All The Things You Are if it walked in and bit them.

Anyway, occasionally, someone pulls out a composition of their own and, because they have done a bit of work, written out a decent chart and have something resembling an arrangement, these compositions stand out and people notice them and comment positively. The great thing is, the farther 'out' we go, the more the audience responds. These people are mostly 20-30. What is apparent is that they respond to the ENERGY not to the notes. When we play something original, there is something less tired and stale about it.

I just think if people stopped accepting covers bands, people would realise that their audience is more accommodating than we think and have more brains than we give then credit for. If the material is strong, they will get it. Remember, every song they ever hear they had to hear for the first time!