Function band vs integrity ramblings

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='212493' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:08 PM']So where does that leave us then? we have all pop and rock music which is shallow nonsense, Classical music which is mostly people playing covers, and Jazz music which is mostly people playing covers and a few people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it aventgarde. So whats left that actually has any integrity at all?[/quote]

Thats a great outlook on music and one i share with you.

cheers for the smile.

Ive not played originals for years but the last band i joined wanted me to play the lines as they had been played by the guy who wrote them.
I think thats the only time i have been less than happy to be told what to play but i still totally understand why they would want it like that.
In fact that's the only band i have been in where i felt my creativity was stifled.

Edited June 4, 2008 by dave_bass5

[wateroftyne]

[b]Q: [/b]Do you like the tunes you play, and are you enjoying the gig?

[b]Yes: [/b]Shut up and play your bass.

[b]No: [/b]Find another gig.

This, my friends, is as complex as it gets.

[Merton]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='212591' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:30 PM'][b]Q: [/b]Do you like the tunes you play, and are you enjoying the gig?

[b]Yes: [/b]Shut up and play your bass.

[b]No: [/b]Find another gig.

This, my friends, is as complex as it gets.[/quote]
Point

Well

Made

[Bilbo]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='212591' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:30 PM'][b]Q: [/b]Do you like the tunes you play, and are you enjoying the gig?

[b]Yes: [/b]Shut up and play your bass.

[b]No: [/b]Find another gig.

This, my friends, is as complex as it gets.[/quote]

How about

Did you write the tunes you play?

Yes - Shut up and play your bass

No - Then just shut up!



I wish I had that much integrity!

[bassicinstinct]

[b]"When we play something original, there is something less tired and stale about it."[/b]

But surely that's at least in part due to the way you play it? If you approach the "standards" with a mindset that you're [b]churning them out to people who aren't really listening anway [/b]then guess what, they [b]won't[/b] really be listening. LOL

I remain convinced that it's more down to the perception of the player than the perception of the audience.

Music is, after all, a craft as well as art and there is surely pride to be had in executing a tune/song/bassline well?

Edited June 4, 2008 by bassicinstinct

[OldGit]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='212562' date='Jun 4 2008, 03:56 PM']Some of the other web-sites where I can frequently be found keep a note of particularly fine postings, with a view to having a [b][i]Post Of The Year (PotY)[/b][/i] Award at Xmas.

I hereby (1) propose the creation of said [b]PotY[/b] Award, (2) suggest that a Moderator immediately volunteer for the task of keeping a file running, and (3) nominate the above post for this year's award.

[/quote]

Jack we have half of your suggestion in the Basschaters' Quotes thread
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=571"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=571[/url]

[OldGit]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='212583' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:15 PM']I just think if people stopped accepting covers bands, people would realise that their audience is more accommodating than we think and have more brains than we give then credit for. If the material is strong, they will get it. Remember, every song they ever hear they had to hear for the first time![/quote]

You really want your audience to work hard don't you?
You should be playing concerts, not gigs, with a seated audience who are there to listen to the music and appreciate what you are doing. I'm a big fan of that kind of event, including jazz clubs and folk clubs where you get severely stared at if you talk through the performaces :0, but not when I'm out for a loud social evening in a pub. Then I don't want to have to work hard .. I just want to see a live band playing good stuff well presented that's either known to me or easy enough to pick up on first hearing.

Fresh 'n' New is OK in it's place but Hard to Handle will get my feet moving every time.

[Johngh]

I've left 2 perfectly good Function / Tribute bands in the past due to "musical integrity" I've thought it would be good to get with a band that was doing decent original songs, but fact of the matter is, that more often than not, you still end up in bands that are playing music that your still not really into playing because of the lack of vacancies, at least in Derbys, Notts area.
I can't play classic rock anymore because its not challenging enough, so to go back to the original post, I would learn the tunes because if nothing else you might learn one or two new licks.
For the most part Muso's are to**ers, and trying to get in a band that is stable enough without at least one band member threatening to leave every other gig is very hard.

[ianrunci]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='212583' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:15 PM']Errr.... that's my point. If its all covers, the whole thing dies, pop, classical, jazz, country, zydeco, reggae, folk.... all dead.

There IS a lot of creative music out there, even some people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it avant-garde, but it rarely gets an outing because of all these covers bands clogging up the gigs!

Let me make a point. I do a regular jazz gig in Bury St Edmunds, been doing it for 4 years. We do covers under the guise of jazz standards and, due to the generally conservative tastes of the bandleader, most of what we do is not particularly challenging. Our audience are not really listening; they look over in our direction once in a while and occasionally clap politely but it is what many call 'background music'. The standards we play are mostly the obvious Top 100 (the jazzers out there will know what I mean) but this audience demographic wouldn't know All The Things You Are if it walked in and bit them.

Anyway, occasionally, someone pulls out a composition of their own and, because they have done a bit of work, written out a decent chart and have something resembling an arrangement, these compositions stand out and people notice them and comment positively. The great thing is, the farther 'out' we go, the more the audience responds. These people are mostly 20-30. What is apparent is that they respond to the ENERGY not to the notes. When we play something original, there is something less tired and stale about it.

I just think if people stopped accepting covers bands, people would realise that their audience is more accommodating than we think and have more brains than we give then credit for. If the material is strong, they will get it. Remember, every song they ever hear they had to hear for the first time![/quote]

Where is the creative music? I haven't heard anything I would call creative since the 1970s. The cover bands are clogging up the gigs because the original bands are playing tunes that no one wants to listen to. You say the jazz covers you do are not particularly challenging, do they have to be challenging? you said in a previous post that it was the complete song that mattered and not the individual musicianship.

to me, most of the Jazz I have listened to is merely self indulgent noodling, or fret w***ing to give it its proper term. I as a punter don't want to listen to that.

Its like everything else in life, if people want a burger they go to macdonalds rather than buy a homade one from a small bistro, The world unfortunately whether we like it or not thrives on convenience. when people go out to enjoy themselves they like a drink and a dance and maybe a singalong, Its much more convenient if the band is playing something they know. Its the way of the world

Besides why would it mean the death of music? it hasn't done the DJ's any harm playing other peoples tunes down the years. Many of them are now stars

[ironside1966]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='212583' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:15 PM']Errr.... that's my point. If its all covers, the whole thing dies, pop, classical, jazz, country, zydeco, reggae, folk.... all dead.

There IS a lot of creative music out there, even some people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it avant-garde, but it rarely gets an outing because of all these covers bands clogging up the gigs!

Let me make a point. I do a regular jazz gig in Bury St Edmunds, been doing it for 4 years. We do covers under the guise of jazz standards and, due to the generally conservative tastes of the bandleader, most of what we do is not particularly challenging. Our audience are not really listening; they look over in our direction once in a while and occasionally clap politely but it is what many call 'background music'. The standards we play are mostly the obvious Top 100 (the jazzers out there will know what I mean) but this audience demographic wouldn't know All The Things You Are if it walked in and bit them.

Anyway, occasionally, someone pulls out a composition of their own and, because they have done a bit of work, written out a decent chart and have something resembling an arrangement, these compositions stand out and people notice them and comment positively. The great thing is, the farther 'out' we go, the more the audience responds. These people are mostly 20-30. What is apparent is that they respond to the ENERGY not to the notes. When we play something original, there is something less tired and stale about it.

I just think if people stopped accepting covers bands, people would realise that their audience is more accommodating than we think and have more brains than we give then credit for. If the material is strong, they will get it. Remember, every song they ever hear they had to hear for the first time![/quote]

If you are bored the audience is it is that simple.

IMHO
1. The problem lies with either the band leader for playing the same tunes week after week and is stuck in his ways. But then again him as kept the gig for four years.

2. Or the band for lack of enthusiasm. The ability to perform is a very important to a musician.

Probably a bit of both.

If the original composition wakes the band up, then it probably is that the makes the audience takes more notice as much as the new tune.
But could you sustain the gig playing only original compositions

Few small points

1. I don't understand the loss of integrity at all.

2. If you prefer to play original music or covers, does it really matter?

3. A good band is a good band, whether covers or original. Same for a musician

4. I don’t understand this notion of if there where no cover bands the audience will have more interest in original bands, I you don’t give people what the want they will go some where else, cinema, pub, stop in with a few cans. Market forces. A local theater near me as suddenly started hosting tribute band after not having live music for many years. This might filter down to other bands in time.


5. I remember auditioning guitarists many years ago where a couple of the guitarist who turned up had only been in original bands and after a quick buck. They had the attitude a cover band was beneath them and they where doing me a favor by lowering them self to join us. If they had spent the time to learn the songs properly they would have known that the lacked the skills needed for the band.

6. If you are not getting enough gigs look inwards, do you entertain, is there something wrong with your promotion marketing, do people really want what you do.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='212506' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:21 PM']Here is Free doing the same track:

[url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2B2clFsLA3w"]FreeAlrightNow[/url]

Even this is a slight departure from the original, but certainly in the same spirit as far as I'm concerned. [/quote]

Absolutely bloody wonderful.

Almost as much fun is checking out the sparseness of the kit, how tatty most of it is, the complete lack of on-stage props/fireworks/lightshows/girly vocalists/disco dancers/back-projected movies/appeals for charity donations/etc. Yet strangely, even without all those modern improvements, it still sounds ... well ... better.

The only thing lacking was a shot of "Jesus" dancing madly at the front of the crowd in his striped kaftan and sandals. Anyone else remember "Jesus"?

I'm showing my age, aren't I?

[OldGit]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='212781' date='Jun 4 2008, 09:41 PM']Absolutely bloody wonderful.

Almost as much fun is checking out the sparseness of the kit, how tatty most of it is, the complete lack of on-stage props/fireworks/lightshows/girly vocalists/disco dancers/back-projected movies/appeals for charity donations/etc. Yet strangely, even without all those modern improvements, it still sounds ... well ... better.

The only thing lacking was a shot of "Jesus" dancing madly at the front of the crowd in his striped kaftan and sandals. Anyone else remember "Jesus"?

I'm showing my age, aren't I?[/quote]


Ha ha yes
Things have moved on .. All Right Now wouldn't even get air play if it was new now Thank goodness it isn't ..
Also that simple gear was great then but Jack Bruce has an interview in one of the current mags. He said Cream tried all their classic old gear for the reunion last year but it sounded like s''t
That was also the first big gig to use onstage monitors (you can see them - WEM cabs as side fills and behind the drums )
Not sure how I'd cope now without monitors ..

Edited June 4, 2008 by OldGit

[steantval]

I was most disappointed to hear the Paul Rogers/Queen combo do All Right Now (and various other Free/Bad Co numbers) with the "wrong" drum parts, especially the bass drum.

Having been a fan of Bad Company for many years I had the opportunity to see Bad Company 2008 a couple of weeks ago.

I was extremely disappointed by their performance, it was awful.
Although I respect Mick Ralphs for writing some excellent songs, he is now living and performing off a name, what I witnessed was basically a load of old washed up musicians who can't hack it anymore.

It's no suprise that Paul Rogers wants nothing to do with this project and avoids speaking about them.

If they expect the public to pay to see them they should at least be able to put on a professional show.

This lot cannot even play their own songs to a reasonable standard.

[P-T-P]

Isn't a huge part of the reason for the apparent demise in (new/up and coming) bands playing original compositions live down to us now being in an age where the kind of technology it took to record the great albums of yesteryear is now sitting somewhere near to anyone who happens to be reading this online?

And the ability to promote, get noticed etc.

Putting together a band, getting some gigs, building up a following, dragging that following up to some shithole in London in the hope a lazy arsed A&R man can be bothered to turn up, scraping up enough cash for 8 hours overnight in a dingy studio with a disillusioned engineer, rented 16 track tape and 500 vinyl copies of your single etc. etc. is no longer the only realistic way to get yourself noticed any more.

There's no shortage of new music (it's quality is up for debate I'll grant you) it's just there's not so much of it making it's way into our lives via the live music scene.

Edited June 5, 2008 by P-T-P

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='steantval' post='212832' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:12 PM']I was most disappointed to hear the Paul Rogers/Queen combo do All Right Now (and various other Free/Bad Co numbers) with the "wrong" drum parts, especially the bass drum.

Having been a fan of Bad Company for many years I had the opportunity to see Bad Company 2008 a couple of weeks ago.

I was extremely disappointed by their performance, it was awful.
Although I respect Mick Ralphs for writing some excellent songs, he is now living and performing off a name, what I witnessed was basically a load of old washed up musicians who can't hack it anymore.

It's no suprise that Paul Rogers wants nothing to do with this project and avoids speaking about them.

If they expect the public to pay to see them they should at least be able to put on a professional show.

This lot cannot even play their own songs to a reasonable standard.[/quote]

Two words:

[b]Jack[/b]
[b]Daniels.[/b]

[OldGit]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='212922' date='Jun 5 2008, 07:03 AM']Two words:

[b]Jack[/b]
[b]Daniels.[/b][/quote]


Too much or too little? and for the band or audience?

[bassicinstinct]

From what I've heard from reliable sources, far too much for the band and not nearly enough for the audience.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='212601' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:46 PM']If you approach the "standards" with a mindset that you're [b]churning them out to people who aren't really listening anway [/b]then guess what, they [b]won't[/b] really be listening. LOL

I remain convinced that it's more down to the perception of the player than the perception of the audience.

Music is, after all, a craft as well as art and there is surely pride to be had in executing a tune/song/bassline well?[/quote]

I can perfectly understand the value of doing a professional job well and have never had any complaints (quite the opposite, in fact) - I would not consider the performances of most of the bands I play with to be poor/lacklustre by definition (sometimes they may be for other reasons but that is the nature of live music, particularly improvised music). I just think most covers bands are entirely predictable, as are many, many jazz performances. Live music should excite. Watching most covers bands just doesn't. I find it to be an increasingly tired concept and I think it has the potential to undermine itself in the longer term.

I don't demand anything of an audience but I think the audiences should demand more of the bands it pays (directly or indirectly) to see.

[teen t-shirt]

People people...

can we not just go out there and entertain people with our bass playing and have a laugh no matter what we're playing...
the fact that your out there in the first place even if you say you don't like playing certain songs or music fact is your doing it so there must have been something that made you want to...

what happened to music just being played... not judged for what genre or wether it's "bubblegum" or not...

well theres my 2 cents...

[Merton]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='212988' date='Jun 5 2008, 09:49 AM']Live music should excite. Watching most covers bands just doesn't. I find it to be an increasingly tired concept and I think it has the potential to undermine itself in the longer term.[/quote]
But good covers bands manage to do this by doing interesting arrangements, medleys, having good shows. We do a really cool version of Superstition (well, I like it), we do something interesting with Play That Funky Music, we do our own take on I Saw Her Standing There. All "bubblegum" probably by your standards (fair point or not??), but we invigorate them by doing them in our own way, and the audience loves it.

[Bilbo]

Yup, thass bubblegum!

A good arrangement of these kinds of tunes is generally polishing turds. Nice and shiny but still fundamentally stools!

Seriously, tho', I am not as much of a nazi as I appear. I can see why people like this stuff. Its low input, undemanding stuff. There is a shallow sense of satisfaction in seeing a room full of punters dancing to the stuff. But I fear that, if all anyone ever get is bubblegum or nostalgia, they will cease to expect anything more. Whilst there is a place for fast food, it would be a shame to see every decent restaraunt close and the only thing you could get to eat would be KFC.

[ianrunci]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='213014' date='Jun 5 2008, 10:18 AM']Yup, thass bubblegum!

A good arrangement of these kinds of tunes is generally polishing turds. Nice and shiny but still fundamentally stools!

Seriously, tho', I am not as much of a nazi as I appear. I can see why people like this stuff. Its low input, undemanding stuff. There is a shallow sense of satisfaction in seeing a room full of punters dancing to the stuff. But I fear that, if all anyone ever get is bubblegum or nostalgia, they will cease to expect anything more. Whilst there is a place for fast food, it would be a shame to see every decent restaraunt close and the only thing you could get to eat would be KFC.[/quote]

Superstition, play that funky music and a classic beatles rock n roll song bubblegum ??? I think not! that just smacks of musical snobbery.

I have noticed most musical snobbery comes from Classical musicians and jazz musicians. Just because people would rather listen to well written pop songs rather than listen to the boring self indulgent noodlings of jazz musicians doesn't make it all bubblegum pop!

[Merton]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='213014' date='Jun 5 2008, 10:18 AM']But I fear that, if all anyone ever get is bubblegum or nostalgia, they will cease to expect anything more. Whilst there is a place for fast food, it would be a shame to see every decent restaraunt close and the only thing you could get to eat would be KFC.[/quote]
Joe Public averages out to want to listen to average popular music at parties and weddings, but it's not killing off the (small?) proportion of people who actively create and/or seek out new interesting music.

We are constantly reviewing our set list to include modern bubblegum so it's not the same "tired" songs over and over, but that's a separate argument.

[bassicinstinct]

[b]Definition of a typical jazz gig:[/b]

Musicians playing 300 chords to an audience of 3 (and possibly a dog).

[b]Definition of a typical rock/pop gig:[/b]

Musicians playing 3 chords to an audience of 300

I'm only playing Devil's Advocate here (possibly in BOTH directions?), but I think there is more than a grain of truth in that.

Generally speaking, IME, jazzers enjoy their own playing far more than any audience could ever hope to.

[Merton]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='213028' date='Jun 5 2008, 10:39 AM']Generally speaking, IME, jazzers enjoy their own playing far more than any audience could ever hope to. [/quote]
There is something there and I find it very odd - when playing in a jazz group I really do appreciate everyone's playing a lot more than just merely listening as a punter.