Function band vs integrity ramblings

[ironside1966]

Working as a FOH engineer, I have worked with quite a lot of original as well as function bands.
In most case function bands easer to work with and tend have a good professional attitude.

Many original bands take pride in the music and are a joy to work with, there enthusiasm is contagious and something many function bands lack.

To say that playing in an original band automatically gives you more integrity is just plain wrong.
I have lost count the number of FOH I have done for original bands who just want the pop star experience, get drunk, take drugs, chat up the audience.
The performance is the last thing on there minds.

[lee4]

I currently play in a function band that pays towards my GAS attacks but the band is also recording originals.Do both,do what you will but do it all with passion and a professional attitude.

[thisnameistaken]

I suppose it depends what you're happy playing. I've never done a function band and I would never do it, just because I don't like the majority of chart music / generic rock music and I would rather disfigure my own testicles than be a part of performing it. Yeah the audience might enjoy it but is that enough?

I think if you can take pride in what you're doing then you're doing it right. Whether that involves cooking up your own tunes or bashing out AC/DC covers. But if you're doing the AC/DC covers and you [i]don't[/i] like doing it, that's where integrity becomes questionable.

[velvetkevorkian]

As far as I'm concerned, if you're paying me I'll play precisely whatever you want me to, with a smile on my face and all the passion I can muster. If you're not paying, I'll play precisely what I want.

I think this may be an attitude I picked up doing orchestral playing up to national youth level- sometimes you just have to smile and get on with it, no matter how much you hate the piece in question, and you have to do it well.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='213556' date='Jun 5 2008, 11:07 PM']As far as I'm concerned, if you're paying me I'll play precisely whatever you want me to, with a smile on my face and all the passion I can muster. If you're not paying, I'll play precisely what I want.[/quote]

I think I grew up listening to too much punk to be able to do that.

Ian Dury was apparently Andrew Lloyd Webber's first choice to write the libretto for "Cats". It would've made Ian a veritable fortune, but he turned it down, because, in his own words: "He's a w***er, isn't he?".

Professionally, I've done jobs I'd rather not have done. Not many of them, but I have done them. But they didn't involve music or anything else persuasive or creative - just normal functional jobs. I can't lend my soul to something soulless. I just can't.

[Tinman]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='213224' date='Jun 5 2008, 02:07 PM']I would, thus, from the comfort of my own a***, consider that, in terms of integrity, musicians that play their own music (in the broadest sense) are a cut above those who imitate others, however accurately.[/quote]
That has to be the most pretentious load of clap-trap I have ever heard. IMO, it's not what you're doing that matters so much, as your attitude and professionalism towards it.

Are you honestly telling me Pete Docherty has integrity?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Tinman' post='213620' date='Jun 6 2008, 06:56 AM']Are you honestly telling me Pete Docherty has integrity?[/quote]

I have no idea. I have never met him.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='213444' date='Jun 5 2008, 07:58 PM']Yeah the audience might enjoy it but is that enough?[/quote]

100% agree. I say again 'If you play for applause, that is all you will ever get' - (Ellis Marsalis). I guess you could also substitute 'money' for 'applause'. I do care if the audience enjoys it but I did a jam session gig last night and it was utter twot but the audience enjoyed themselves. I like that they liked it but its not enough.

Just throwing in a curve ball - I wonder if integrity needs, by definition, to be hard won. It is easy to have integrity, for instance, if you have £1m in the bank but a lot harder to do it with an overdraft. There are still people that do. There is a telling story in one of Paul Bley's books (I think its called Stopping Time) where he recalls living next to Steve Swallow and, when their electricity was cut off, each would run an extension lead to the others apartment so they could have power. Their commitment to their art was that strong. There are 100s of stories of jazz musicians (big names) roughing it in these kinds of ways just to keep it real for themselves.

Admirable, stupid or both?

Also, is integrity a noble state that we all aspire to and, accordingly, a state that forces us, consciously or otherwise, to justify our own decisions in order to maintain a self-image that allows us to retain some degree of that sense of nobility. Do we need to feel that we have integrity in order to feel ok about ourselves?

Edited June 6, 2008 by bilbo230763

[OldGit]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='213649' date='Jun 6 2008, 09:17 AM']Do we need to feel that we have integrity in order to feel ok about ourselves?[/quote]

Absolutely! It's just not always the most pressing need.

[john_the_bass]

I maintain my integrity by always doing the right thing....whatever may be the right thing to do at the time.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='OldGit' post='213751' date='Jun 6 2008, 11:38 AM']Absolutely! It's just not always the most pressing need.[/quote]

Agreed. I guess I am asking, do we delude ourselves when we act without integrity in order to fool ourselves into believing that we have it?

[OldGit]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='213758' date='Jun 6 2008, 11:49 AM']Agreed. I guess I am asking, do we delude ourselves when we act without integrity in order to fool ourselves into believing that we have it?[/quote]


Too many carrots

[Jase]

[quote name='Galilee' post='209597' date='May 30 2008, 01:56 PM']I expressed an interest in trying out for a local function band, not really my sort of thing but I figured it would be regular live work and little 'management' responsibility for a change. The band leader sent me their playlist, 64 songs, all classics I suppose (in an MOR way), but all new to me from a playing point of view.

I'm going to have to pass on this opportunity, but feel like I should be using this list to get these songs under my belt for the future. The trouble is, how much of an idiot am I going to feel sitting there learning Lady In Red, Black Velvet and suchlike?

I think I've hit a critical point in my life, where the musical 'integrity' of my youth is now exactly balanced by my being nearly 40 years old. I'm getting so old that I just want to get out and play anything at any opportunity, but I'm not so old that I'll play any old rubbish.

What do you reckon? Would you learn a load of songs that aren't your style at all to get work? Have you ever played [i]exactly[/i] the sort of music that you really love in any case, or is it always a compromise? Should I stop navel-gazing and just play the bloody thing until my fingers bleed?[/quote]


Idiot? cos you're learning Lady in Red or Black Velvet? Nah, I don't think so, I'd give a function band a blast, just to get paid. I don't enjoy the majority of stuff I do with my covers band, but what the hell, use your instrument to get paid....better than sitting on your butt without work and the advantage of extra cash is good for original projects.

I'm forty soon and like you need to get out and play but it's always been that way for me....I'll play most things me as long as I'm out doing my thing on bass and getting paid of course. Life is too short...get out and play I reckon cos if you don't someone else will.

Not personal to you Galilee mate, just speaking generally.

[P-T-P]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='213758' date='Jun 6 2008, 11:49 AM']Agreed. I guess I am asking, do we delude ourselves when we act without integrity in order to fool ourselves into believing that we have it?[/quote]

I think integrity - and I it would be a good time to define it further as artistic integrity, seeing as how that's what we're talking about really - is at once both a salve and a romantic ideal.

It's played like a trump card or even a put down a lot of the time. A lot of original artists struggle to get their work heard and/or to make a living from their work but console themselves by focussing on their artistic integrity and use it to feel better about themselves when their work is compared to other's more commercially successful endeavours. It's part snobbery, part insecurity, part pride etc.

Ironically, artistic integrity can serve to make wprk more interesting, widely appreciated and/or commercially viable after its creator has passed away. Not much consolation to the artist though.

[dave_bass5]

What does integrity mean?

[ianrunci]

Depends on what type of integrity you mean? I mean playing Brown girl in the ring three nights a week when you can't stand it and turning in a good professional performance each time despite that, well wouldn't that be professional integrity?

besides, how many modern bands have artistic integrity. For example Oasis blatantly copying other peoples tunes and changing the words, is that done with integrity? Thats just one so called original band, how many more are our there copying other artists material and calling it original.

I think its all down to personal taste and obviously personal opinion. There is no black and white except in the eye of the beholder.

Edited June 6, 2008 by ianrunci

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='213833' date='Jun 6 2008, 01:16 PM']Depends on what type of integrity you mean? I mean playing Brown girl in the ring three nights a week when you can't stand it and turning in a good professional performance each time despite that, well wouldn't that be professional integrity?

besides, how many modern bands have artistic integrity. For example Oasis blatantly copying other peoples tunes and changing the words, is that done with integrity? Thats just one so called original band, how many more are our there copying other artists material and calling it original.

I think its all down to personal taste and obviously personal opinion. There is no black and white except in the eye of the beholder.[/quote]


Exactly. Seems a bit of a wide open question but good discussion anyway.
I didnt realise so many of us played covers.

[ironside1966]

Sometimes it sounds like we bass players are doing the world a favor by not depriving the populous of our contribution to music.

Is it me, or is it this simple

I Play covers for the money or because I it is something I enjoy. Usually both.
Or
I prefer to play my own bass line because it more fun for me then covers.

Most people in cover bands are just as capable at composing bass lines to other people’s songs.
I am sure the majority of you guys in original band are capable of playing in cover bands.

In all cases, some player are more versatile then others

Edited June 6, 2008 by ironside1966

[Paul Cooke]

sorry for bumping this back up there... but...

I had a long think this morning driving back home...

In my opinion,

Integrity is going out there and enjoying yourself and making sure the crowd is enjoying themselves... even if you hate the material...

if you think it's only playing originals or that playing Mustang Sally (or whatever) is beneath you then that's not integrity, that's snobbery...

someone posted in my Bo Diddley RIP thread the following:

Bo told him there are three reasons to play: 1) to learn something, 2) to get paid & 3) to enjoy yourself...

you don't have to satisfy all three, but if you do then it's a bonus, but meeting any 1 of the three is reason enough to be playing.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Paul Cooke' post='214219' date='Jun 7 2008, 10:10 AM']sorry for bumping this back up there... but...

I had a long think this morning driving back home...

In my opinion,

Integrity is going out there and enjoying yourself and making sure the crowd is enjoying themselves... even if you hate the material...

if you think it's only playing originals or that playing Mustang Sally (or whatever) is beneath you then that's not integrity, that's snobbery...

someone posted in my Bo Diddley RIP thread the following:

Bo told him there are three reasons to play: 1) to learn something, 2) to get paid & 3) to enjoy yourself...

you don't have to satisfy all three, but if you do then it's a bonus, but meeting any 1 of the three is reason enough to be playing.[/quote]

Tottaly agree.

If i was doing something i really hated then that would bring my integrity in to question. but its not for someone esle ot question it.

[Bilbo]

Did two gigs this weekend - one was to a yacht club function. 250 people all eating drinking and being merry. They loved it; some singing along, some dancing, lots of applause. But, yes, you guessed it, the music was dross. Didn't swing, didn't groove, weak players, dreadful sound (massive warehouse type room - think Stafford Bingley Hall but smaller). Earned £100 - hated every minute except the breaks.

2nd gig - jazz trio (piano, bass, drums). Great sound, real piano (for a change) - appreciative, attentive audience including a retired American pianist and his party who were thrilled to hear jazz played so well in the UK and kept saying so - he kept asking for requests, most which our pianist (Chris Simmonds, Norfolk) knew and I could credibly busk. Great evening - spiritually, socially, musically. Earned £50.

When I start turing down gig 2s to play gig 1s because it is more money, then I will know that the integrity has long gone.

[bassicinstinct]

An alternative view, of course, would be that doing the likes of Gig1[b] enables[/b] you to do the likes of Gig2.

Seems to me that there are many actors who seem to adopt this stance and do "bread and butter" work so that they can display their artistic inegrity in other productions (e.g. doing dross TV sitcoms to finance theatre productions - a la Robert Lindsay for example).

That seems to me to be a perfectly sensible attitude and not one which should be criticised IMHO.

I do take your point, though, that [b]turning down [/b]Gig2 on a [b]purely financial basis [/b]is a different thing entirely.

I'm still not convinced, though, that even this displays a lack of integrity.

If your chosen craft is playing bass, I don't see a problem in marketing that craft for the best financial return.

On the other hand, I guess if you were a strictly "hobby player", your perspective might be different as you would be selecting your gigs from a purely[b] musical/aritstic [/b]perpective without regard for what you may or may not earn from the show.

Boy, this makes my head hurt. I think I need more espresso........................................................

Edited June 9, 2008 by bassicinstinct

[john_the_bass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='215220' date='Jun 9 2008, 08:56 AM']Did two gigs this weekend - one was to a yacht club function. 250 people all eating drinking and being merry. They loved it; some singing along, some dancing, lots of applause. But, yes, you guessed it, the music was dross. Didn't swing, didn't groove, weak players, dreadful sound (massive warehouse type room - think Stafford Bingley Hall but smaller). Earned £100 - hated every minute except the breaks.

2nd gig - jazz trio (piano, bass, drums). Great sound, real piano (for a change) - appreciative, attentive audience including a retired American pianist and his party who were thrilled to hear jazz played so well in the UK and kept saying so - he kept asking for requests, most which our pianist (Chris Simmonds, Norfolk) knew and I could credibly busk. Great evening - spiritually, socially, musically. Earned £50.

When I start turing down gig 2s to play gig 1s because it is more money, then I will know that the integrity has long gone.[/quote]


You're fortunate then that your gig2 pays you some cash and gives you an audience.
Gig 1 - for example, is a 60th birthday party - people are all up dancing and enjoying themselves. I'm enjoying it, even though I'm playing Mustang Sally. Gig 2, is in my originals band, I am opening for a signed band who have managed to draw a crowd of 4. I am not getting paid, have had to rush to the venue for a sound check (and spent an hour sitting around waiting for something to happen) and have then played to an empty room.

I know what I'd rather be doing.

[Jase]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='215220' date='Jun 9 2008, 08:56 AM']Did two gigs this weekend - one was to a yacht club function. 250 people all eating drinking and being merry. They loved it; some singing along, some dancing, lots of applause. But, yes, you guessed it, the music was dross. Didn't swing, didn't groove, weak players, dreadful sound (massive warehouse type room - think Stafford Bingley Hall but smaller). Earned £100 - hated every minute except the breaks.

2nd gig - jazz trio (piano, bass, drums). Great sound, real piano (for a change) - appreciative, attentive audience including a retired American pianist and his party who were thrilled to hear jazz played so well in the UK and kept saying so - he kept asking for requests, most which our pianist (Chris Simmonds, Norfolk) knew and I could credibly busk. Great evening - spiritually, socially, musically. Earned £50.

When I start turing down gig 2s to play gig 1s because it is more money, then I will know that the integrity has long gone.[/quote]


It's an odd feeling when you know the gig wasn't up to much and you went down a storm!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='215228' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:11 AM']Seems to me that there are many actors who seem to adopt this stance and do "bread and butter" work so that they can display their artistic inegrity in other productions (e.g. doing dross TV sitcoms to finance theatre productions - a la Robert Lindsay for example).[/quote]

I think you're confusing the meaning of the word "integrity" there. By definition it's not something you can shelve when it suits you.

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='215228' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:11 AM']If your chosen craft is playing bass, I don't see a problem in marketing that craft for the best financial return.[/quote]

Then you have missed the point entirely. When you decide that you're going to pick one gig over another for financial reasons, despite the other being more artistically satisfying, then you cannot claim to have artistic integrity.

We may eventually reach the conclusion here that there are very few professional musicians who haven't sold their souls to be professional musicians. Certainly I think anyone who's ever appeared in a magazine holding a commercial product needs to start out on the "dubious musical character" list and earn their place on the other side.