endorka Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215260' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:11 AM']Then you have missed the point entirely. When you decide that you're going to pick one gig over another for financial reasons, despite the other being more artistically satisfying, then you cannot claim to have artistic integrity.[/quote] Integrity aside, one must eat. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='215220' date='Jun 9 2008, 08:56 AM']....When I start turing down gig 2s to play gig 1s because it is more money, then I will know that the integrity has long gone....[/quote] No, your integrity went out the window when you started writing these negative, grumpy, elitist and tedious tirades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='endorka' post='215280' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:51 AM']Integrity aside, one must eat. Jennifer[/quote] Indeed. I look on playing in a band as a job. I have good days, i have bad days. I wont let anyone down by refusing to do a gig just because i think its beneath me or just dont feel like doing it (unless i cant of course, and thats not happened yet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='endorka' post='215280' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:51 AM']Integrity aside, one must eat.[/quote] Fine. But if you put your artistic integrity aside in order to eat, you concede any claim to it. So I find it odd that a cover band musician would maintain any illusion of artistic integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215289' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:07 AM']Fine. But if you put your artistic integrity aside in order to eat, you concede any claim to it. So I find it odd that a cover band musician would maintain any illusion of artistic integrity.[/quote] You could but i get the feeling a lot of people dont. you can play covers and not loose integrity. I guess its how you see integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='dave_bass5' post='215296' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:14 AM']You could but i get the feeling a lot of people dont. you can play covers and not loose integrity. I guess its how you see integrity.[/quote] It seems we're discussing two different aspects of personal integrity here. I think that's the root of the argument. You're talking about professional integrity: Playing your bass properly even when asked to play something bloody awful - because you see it as your job and you take pride in doing your job well. I'm talking about artistic integrity: Refusing to play something bloody awful because it's bloody awful and you would be ashamed to take part in it. They are two very different characteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215289' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:07 AM']Fine. But if you put your artistic integrity aside in order to eat, you concede any claim to it. So I find it odd that a cover band musician would maintain any illusion of artistic integrity.[/quote] I don't accept that I've "missed the point" and I couldn't disagree more with your post above. [b]"When you decide that you're going to pick one gig over another for financial reasons, despite the other being more artistically satisfying, then you cannot claim to have artistic integrity."[/b] If you genuinely believe that, I think you'd be hard pressed to find[b] ANY[/b] pro or semi pro musician with integrity (by your definition), unless, of course, he is of "independent means". Don't get me wrong here. I don't disagree with the principle of what you're suggesting but, as someone else has rightly pointed out, one does have to eat and integrity is a dish of little taste or nutritional value, however good for the soul it may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215302' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:23 AM']It seems we're discussing two different aspects of personal integrity here. I think that's the root of the argument. You're talking about professional integrity: Playing your bass properly even when asked to play something bloody awful - because you see it as your job and you take pride in doing your job well. I'm talking about artistic integrity: Refusing to play something bloody awful because it's bloody awful and you would be ashamed to take part in it. They are two very different characteristics.[/quote] No. Im talking about actually enjoying playing most, if not all songs im asked to play. I cant really think of more than one or two songs i don't like playing and that's more because i think they are boring to play, not that i dont like them. I take your points though but dont feel i have experienced what you are talking about. some people are more highly strung than others IME and its those that seem to put down function bands and will always tell you whats what. I know a few people that always laughed at me in the past because of what i was doing and how it wasnt "proper" music. Now these people are doing functions. to me, thats a loss of integrity. Edited June 9, 2008 by dave_bass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='chris_b' post='215284' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:57 AM']No, your integrity went out the window when you started writing these negative, grumpy, elitist and tedious tirades.[/quote] What are you trying to say! Whilst I would not consider my perspectives to be elitist or negative (although I cannot claim they are not tedious or grumpy), I fear for a forum where expressing an honest, if unpopular, opinion can be viewed as indicative of a lack of integrity. I think thisnameistaken's point is valid: [b]"We may eventually reach the conclusion here that there are very few professional musicians who haven't sold their souls to be professional musicians" [/b] There are many examples of musicians staking their own claims to integrity over those of others (HM, I know, is full of these people) but, the minute one starts to change your art in order to increase its market value, you are compromised. There are many musicians who didn't and don't; Thelonious Monk, John Coltrane, Olivier Messiaen etc and there are others who have take the decision to terminate their relationship with lucrative acts in order to persue more artsitically satisfying avenues; Francis Dunnery, Peter Gabriel - this is not about one genre being more valid than others. A commited Country & Western singer is as noble as a commited Serial Composer. But the minute you seek to manipulate your product in order to render it marketable, you are risking a compromise. I guess thisnameistaken is right and that music is either art or commerce but rarely both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [b]Life itself[/b] is a compromise!!! Isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Absoflippinlutely! But it rarely masquerades as art! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='215325' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:48 AM']I guess thisnameistaken is right and that music is either art or commerce but rarely both.[/quote] Thats the great thing about forums. People have so many different opinions. And they all think they are right ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Thing is... If Joan Miro had turned to his Parisien buddies one evening and said "Y'know I'm still going to do the Dada-esque thing in my spare time, but I think I'm going to do some flattering portraits of wealthy industrialists too - the pay is great", I doubt his contemporaries would've had much respect for his new direction. And they almost certainly wouldn't have come to the conclusion that his integrity as an artist was not compromised by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215355' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:25 PM']Thing is... If Joan Miro had turned to his Parisien buddies one evening and said "Y'know I'm still going to do the Dada-esque thing in my spare time, but I think I'm going to do some flattering portraits of wealthy industrialists too - the pay is great", I doubt his contemporaries would've had much respect for his new direction. And they almost certainly wouldn't have come to the conclusion that his integrity as an artist was not compromised by it.[/quote] Exactly. its not him who thinks he is compromising his integrity, its someone else who says he is. IMHO of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bilbo230763' post='215342' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:06 PM']Absoflippinlutely! But it rarely masquerades as art![/quote] Oh, I dunno. If my memory serves me correctly, there is a bassist of very high repute who is well thought of around these parts, and who worked with Mark Ronson on his covers both in the studio and live. Am I to assume that he no longer has any integrity? Edited June 9, 2008 by bassicinstinct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy and the Bears Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='bassicinstinct' post='215358' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:30 PM']Oh, I dunno. If my memory serves me correctly, there is a bassist of very high repute who is well thought of around these parts, and who worked with Mark Ronson on his covers both in the studio and live. Am I to assume that he no longer has any integrity? [/quote] If you understand integrity to mean having some consistancy between your internal values / beliefs and your actions then it is legitimate to claim musical integrity if you personally believe it to be true. Each of us will have different values and beliefs as none of us will have experienced the same things in life. I would therefore only be sacrificing my musical integrity if I believed that was indeed what I was doing. I give no credence to others judging what my beliefs are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I've just looked up 'integrity' in my thesaurus... one of the synonyms given is 'righteousness'. Judging by some of the posts here, it looks like it might be missing a 'self-'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='Rich' post='215366' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:40 PM']I've just looked up 'integrity' in my thesaurus... one of the synonyms given is 'righteousness'. Judging by some of the posts here, it looks like it might be missing a 'self-'... [/quote] Mmmm........................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='Huggy and the Bears' post='215365' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:40 PM']If you understand integrity to mean having some consistancy between your internal values / beliefs and your actions then it is legitimate to claim musical integrity if you personally believe it to be true. Each of us will have different values and beliefs as none of us will have experienced the same things in life. I would therefore only be sacrificing my musical integrity if I believed that was indeed what I was doing. I give no credence to others judging what my beliefs are. [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='Rich' post='215366' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:40 PM']I've just looked up 'integrity' in my thesaurus... one of the synonyms given is 'righteousness'. Judging by some of the posts here, it looks like it might be missing a 'self-'... [/quote] I was just thinking this discussion could use a few insults to stop it getting too intellectual. This is the internet after all. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='Huggy and the Bears' post='215365' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:40 PM']If you understand integrity to mean having some consistancy between your internal values / beliefs and your actions then it is legitimate to claim musical integrity if you personally believe it to be true. Each of us will have different values and beliefs as none of us will have experienced the same things in life. I would therefore only be sacrificing my musical integrity if I believed that was indeed what I was doing. I give no credence to others judging what my beliefs are. [/quote] Fair point well made. IMHO.obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Apparently not...... I think this has all got a bit stupid to be honest..... I'm a bassist.... I play in a function band, a covers band and an original act.... I consider myself to be good enough to play at all of these levels competently and play with some great musicians. The fact that I can fulfill these roles gives me integrity IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215371' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:46 PM']I was just thinking this discussion could use a few insults to stop it getting too intellectual. This is the internet after all. Thanks.[/quote] I'd respectfully beg to differ on that point too. As far as I'm concerned, it truly is a testament to Basschat and it's members that this post [b]hasn't[/b] degenerated into insults and/or name calling. It is self evident that this is a subject upon which people have deeply felt and wildy differing opinions and we should be proud of ourselves that, thus far at least, everyone has behaved with dignity and - dare I say it - integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bassicinstinct' post='215379' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:49 PM'], thus far at least, everyone has behaved with dignity and - dare I say it - integrity. [/quote] Ironic, huh? I think there is something in what Huggy & The Bears says - if your external world and your internal one are at peace, you have integrity. Mine aren't. So I don't. Although I did ditch a residency on the weekend because it was undermining my sense of purpose. Maybe I do have integrity after all but its in the loft and I need to get it out an polish it!! Edited June 9, 2008 by bilbo230763 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy and the Bears Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='bassicinstinct' post='215379' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:49 PM']I'd respectfully beg to differ on that point too. As far as I'm concerned, it truly is a testament to Basschat and it's members that this post [b]hasn't[/b] degenerated into insults and/or name calling. It is self evident that this is a subject upon which people have deeply felt and wildy differing opinions and we should be proud of ourselves that, thus far at least, everyone has behaved with dignity and - dare I say it - integrity. [/quote] In terms of true art, if we look back in history at the periods of great artists (particularly the Impressionists and Renaisance painters period), great debates (similar to this) were held (in coffee houses at the time) that were sometimes controversial, sometimes not. I think it is interesting to observe people's behaviour and I am pleased to be part of such a discussion. Also, it is not a crime to be intellectual - and you don't need a PHd behave intellectually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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