Public liability insurance - how common?

[basstheface]

Hi - like many others on this forum, I've played in many bands over the years. Virtually all the gigs have been pub venues. I've never been in a band that has taken out public liability insurance and when I ask around my muso friends neither have they. In my county there must be getting on 50 bands that you see regularly advertised as doing gigs. I wonder how many have considered PLI or have taken it out?

So my question is - how common is it for bands just playing pubs perhaps a couple of times a month to take out PLI? What are the risks and do pubs generally have their own PLI that would cover if say a drunk fell over a floor monitor and broke his/her nose?

Views and advice welcomed please. Thanks.

[icastle]

It really depends on the venues you tend to play at.

We play a lot of hotels that insist on PLI - we keep a laminated copy of ours in the lead box.

[shizznit]

Pubs and clubs rarely check if you are covered or ask for a copy of your PLI, but for larger venues, hotels, restaurants and sometimes even council owned premises (indoor or outdoor) may ask you.

[markbunney]

Our band has it (i also get it included with my musical equipment insurance).

Pubs have never asked for it, but hotels, wedding reception venues etc have.

Costs us about £80 a year.

[Lynottfan]

Always had it, not that expensive and well worth the cover. I would recommend it, better to be safe than sorry, especially if your band is looking to branch out venue wise.

[ubassman]

Have a look at this [url="https://www.cglloyds.co.uk/instant-quote/plel?trade=241&gclid=CIv30tni6LYCFSXLtAoduksAcA"]web site[/url] Quote of around £55 per annum for £1M PLI ( plenty of other on line quotes though !).

The organisers of any venue / event should have PLI and should indemnify you with employers liability insurance - its your place of work and they are the employer paying your wages , providing you ( in theory) with a safe working environment . They also have a duty of care to the public coming into their building to make sure it safe and all preventable risks have been mitigated . The chances are you would be covered in any event under their Public Liability insurance policy for most things that occur in a venue . It would be pretty worrying for a venue to have no insurance in place and to try to pass on their responsibility down the line to a band. If however the band did something that caused a problem, for example a bin toppled offstage and hit someone then it may well be down to the band ...so for £55 quid its probably best to be covered by your own policy.

Quick story - we once played on a Thames river boat - the night was rocking until the captain turned the electricity off to stop the band in its tracks so as to stop everyone dancing ....reason being that the whole deck was springing up and down and he was worried about the thing collapsing. He wouldnt let the gig continue because he said that the boat wasn't covered under his insurance if the floor collapsed. Whose fault ? The Boat owner for not having a boat fit for purpose or the band for causing the crowd to be too lively ? If the floor had collapsed the injury claims laywers would have gone for everyone ! As the saying goes, nobody intends to have an accident - when one occurs I wouldn't want to rely on the robustness of someone else's policy!

[BassBunny]

My understanding is that when you play a Pub you are covered by the Pub PLI as they are "inviting" you to play.
We only paid £75 for £2M for a 6 piece band and for Weddings, Corporate events etc. it is essential, (just like PAT testing certificate).

[bonzodog]

I've always had it for bands I have been in. As has already been said its so cheap (£50-£80 per year) its worth it as more and more places insist on it. You may not even know till you turn up, get the gear out of the van and be told you can't play unless you can produce a certificate. Like the previous poster, PAT certificate is also good to get (Portable Appliance Test). Most electricians will come round your house and test your gear for about £25.00 and give you a 12month certificate. Or you can buy your own testing equipment.

[MacDaddy]

included with my MU membership along with free insurance

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Lynottfan' timestamp='1366995977' post='2060143']
Always had it, not that expensive and [b]well worth the cover[/b].
[/quote]

Has anyone here ever claimed on a PLI policy? What were the circumstances and the outcome?

Has anyone here ever wished they had a PLI policy? What were the circumstances and the outcome?

[tauzero]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1366993928' post='2060112']
It really depends on the venues you tend to play at.

We play a lot of hotels that insist on PLI - we keep a laminated copy of ours in the lead box.
[/quote]

We played at one hotel that insisted on it (fair enough) but it was £10M, not the usual £1M or £2M. Fortunately the bride and groom paid for it.

[Lynottfan]

In answer to your question flyfisher, YES and it was well worth it, PLI is the thing that when sh*t happens, and sadly it does happen, you wish you had it, trust me for the sake of £69.99 a year it was a godsend. (iirc our singer sorted it through the MU at the time)

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Lynottfan' timestamp='1367012872' post='2060381']
In answer to your question flyfisher, YES and it was well worth it, PLI is the thing that when sh*t happens, and sadly it does happen, you wish you had it, trust me for the sake of £69.99 a year it was a godsend. (iirc our singer sorted it through the MU at the time)
[/quote]

I take it something happened when you were out playing one time? What a relief if so! I hope it was nothing too serious.

[Lynottfan]

Indeed it did, and I say to all players who are out there week in week out, get it, don't think you are being clever or saving a couple of quid or that you don't need it, for just a couple of quid a week get yourself covered, NEVER rely on the venue was the lesson learnt for us.

[garyrob32]

Yes, never rely on a venue's own insurance! Quite often they will have insurance but will rarely cover a visiting band. Even if they say it does, ask to see a copy of their insurance which shows it covers YOUR liabilities and not just the venue's liabilities.

Some venues insist on bands having their own cover and this is good enough to make most take out the appropriate cover but in my eyes you need to have this cover for every event you do regardless. Simply putting your equipment on the floor and someone tripping over it could result in an injury that could cost thousands.

Everything my liability policy covers is highly unlikely to happen but if it does then I know I'm covered. Just a no brainer for less than £100 a year.

[DorsetBlue]

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1367006906' post='2060298']
Like the previous poster, PAT certificate is also good to get (Portable Appliance Test). Most electricians will come round your house and test your gear for about £25.00 and give you a 12month certificate. Or you can buy your own testing equipment.
[/quote]

I would be a little careful about the last sentence, the HSE state:

[b] [url="http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm#q6"]I have been told that I have to get an electrician to do portable appliance testing work. Is that correct?[/url][/b]


The person doing testing work needs to competent to do it. In many low-risk environments, a sensible (competent) member of staff can undertake visual inspections if they have enough knowledge and training. However, when undertaking combined inspection and testing, a greater level of knowledge and experience is needed, and the person will need:[list]
[*]the right equipment to do the tests
[*]the ability to use this test equipment properly
[*]the ability to properly understand the test results
[/list]
As an Engineer (Electrical and Electronic by qualification), I would say that 'should the worst happen' self-tested items conducted by someone without Electrical qualifications, would be consider invalid in court. If you work for a company with someone who does the internal PAT testing, have a word/offer to drop them some beer money to do it for you. Likewise if you know an electrician (they don't make any money from PAT testing - too many people out there doing it), see what deal you can come up with. The £25 mentioned seems reasonable.

Edited April 29, 2013 by DorsetBlue

[spacey]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1367009892' post='2060335']
Has anyone here ever claimed on a PLI policy? What were the circumstances and the outcome?

Has anyone here ever wished they had a PLI policy? What were the circumstances and the outcome?
[/quote]

Someone once tried to claim on ours a few years ago after a speaker was knocked over by two fighting drunks, it ended up in court with the judge ruling the hotels Public Liability was the one that had to pay out as it covered the same risk and where two policies exist that cover one risk the oldest policy is the one that takes precedent cancelling out any other policy, the hotel did not like it an appealed to the high court, lost again and ended up with 30k of legal bills.

It is a requirement that any venue selling alcohol holds its own liability insurance as part of the licensing application.

Edited April 29, 2013 by spacey

[fretmeister]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1366996658' post='2060150']
Have a look at this [url="https://www.cglloyds.co.uk/instant-quote/plel?trade=241&gclid=CIv30tni6LYCFSXLtAoduksAcA"]web site[/url] Quote of around £55 per annum for £1M PLI ( plenty of other on line quotes though !).

The organisers of any venue / event should have PLI and should indemnify you with employers liability insurance - its your place of work and they are the employer paying your wages , providing you ( in theory) with a safe working environment .


[/quote]


Sorry - but this is all wrong.

A band is a partnership (or limited company if you have done that officially) that is engaged to provide a specific service to a client, being the venue.

That does not make the venue your employer in any sense of the word. You get paid for your service, you do your own taxes (!) etc. At very best you are self employed.

While the venue still has obligations under the Occupiers Liability Act 1957 as well as other regulations that does not make them liable for the bands' negligence.

Simply put, if a punter slips on a worn bit of carpet then they sue the venue. If the punter gets injured when your PA stack falls on him or is electrocuted by your equipment then that is your liability and the sue you. No doubt the punter will write to the venue first and then the venue will pass on your details.

Some venues even present contracts to the band that have indemnity clauses that try to make the band liable for any and all claims that occur while the band is there. Including the dodgy carpet that has been there since 1986. If you sign it - then you've accepted that liability.

Serious life changing injuries are very rare, but even at the cheap end (say a broken wrist to a punter) means about £4000 in compensation + his loss of earnings (6 weeks to 6 months off work depending on the type of work and injury severity) so about £5,500 to £15,000 so far, and then the legal costs on top. Not just his costs - but your costs as well in defending the claim. So add another £20,000..

So basically - if your band can't afford to write a cheque for £25,000 + you need insurance. Or really, if you can't afford to write a cheque at all, you need insurance.

And don't think that because you don't have the money the injured person won't nip along to the court to try and get an order for sale on the houses of the band members to cover the debt... because they will. And if you have kids in the house the court won't let it be sold from under you... but they'll be a charging order on it that will stay until the debt is settled. You won't be able to sell / move house without the debt being settled first. Irrespective of the inflation rate, the interest on the legal costs will be at 8% per year.


Insurance is dirt cheap. Buy it.

Edited April 29, 2013 by fretmeister

[flyfisher]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1367240794' post='2062978']
Someone once tried to claim on ours a few years ago after a speaker was knocked over by two fighting drunks, it ended up in court with the judge ruling the hotels Public Liability was the one that had to pay out as it covered the same risk and where two policies exist that cover one risk the oldest policy is the one that takes precedent cancelling out any other policy, the hotel did not like it an appealed to the high court, lost again and ended up with 30k of legal bills.
[/quote]

Er, what about suing the "two fighting drunks" who were responsible for knocking over the speakers in the first place?

The trouble with all this insurance is that it makes it too easy to sue people for stupid stuff like tripping over.


[quote name='garyrob32' timestamp='1367227359' post='2062675']
Some venues insist on bands having their own cover and this is good enough to make most take out the appropriate cover but in my eyes you need to have this cover for every event you do regardless. [b]Simply putting your equipment on the floor and someone tripping over it could result in an injury that could cost thousands.[/b]
[/quote]

So what's the position if, say, you go out to a restaurant for a meal and leave a bag on the floor next to your table that someone trips over and breaks their wrist? Should we all have personal PLI to cover such potential incidents?

[fretmeister]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1367255621' post='2063254']
Er, what about suing the "two fighting drunks" who were responsible for knocking over the speakers in the first place?

The trouble with all this insurance is that it makes it too easy to sue people for stupid stuff like tripping over. [/quote]

No. Suing is easy when people are negligent. All insurance does is protect the negligent person from being bankrupted.



[quote]
So what's the position if, say, you go out to a restaurant for a meal and leave a bag on the floor next to your table that someone trips over and breaks their wrist? Should we all have personal PLI to cover such potential incidents?
[/quote]


Technically speaking - the venue and the bag owner will share liability. In reality the venue will pay as the the punter is unlikely to be able to afford to pay anything. The venue probably won't bother trying to bring in the bag owner.

I was involved in a similar case a few years ago, when a punter knocked a light down in a night club and it hit someone. The venue had not secured it out of reach, and the drunk should not have knocked it off. Both liable, but in the end the drunk had no money at all, rented his house and had a 20 year old car. No point spending money going after anyone who is potless.

For most PLI type situations, you'll probably find you have cover on your Home and Contents insurance. But that won't cover things like bands, or anything else when you are getting paid.

[flyfisher]

Fair point about it not being worth suing people who don't have any money but, as you've already pointed out, that wouldn't apply to anyone who has a house (or a car perhaps?). So, we take out insurance to cover ourselves against 'frivolous' claims, only to find that the very fact we have such insurance makes us a more attractive prospect for being sued!

Which was sort of my earlier point about asking who had band PLI and had been claimed against, compared with those who didn't.

Also, I understand that a band situation moves into a differrent situation if commercial considerations are involved (i.e. fees etc), but what about a band playing for free and effectvely by invitation?

[fretmeister]

A person being negligent makes them attractive for being sued. The insurance protects YOU! It is for your benefit. The fact that it pays out on your behalf is almost unimportant. It's purpose is to protect you.

Just because you can't afford to pay doesn't automatically mean the innocent party will stop and not bother. They could bankrupt you.


And the biggest flaw in your argument is that you don't know if a future claim is 'frivolous' or serious.

If a PA cab lands on someones head and gives them brain damage and they need care for life...

That is about £500,000 for the injury
Then the loss of earnings for life, discounted to take into account that it would be awarded as a lump sum. Let's say £20K a year and the bloke was 25 when he was injured. That's 40 years at 25K - that's a Million.
Then the 3 nurses salaries (1 nurse doing 8 hours per day shifts for 24 hour care). That's £20K per year each. so £60K for the next 40 years. That's another £2.4 million. Running total is £3,900,000.00. Then loads of other stuff on top.

The reason you have the insurance is because you don't know the severity of a claim that might be made.

And to be honest - if your PA cab does that to someone, you deserve to get sued, and you are obligated to pay for ruining his life.



If you are a free band, then it *could* be different but if it is your equipment then you are in the firing line. It really comes down to what was agreed between the band and the venue. Of course most of the time there is no agreement, you just turn up and play. In that situation it becomes a bun fight between the venue and you. You blame each other. In actual fact you will spend more time and money as a co-defendant than as a solo defendant. The injured person will come after the venue. The venue will blame you. You will blame the venue. The venue is likely to have proper insurance and they will fund their lawyers.

How are you going to compete with that?


Some instrument insurance includes a bit of PLI and MU membership does too.

It's worth it.


EDIT - You can't avoid liability for something your equipment does. Or if you stack it wrong. The venue had no part in that. Why should they pay out? If you hit someone in the face with a tennis racquet then it's not the club that gets sued.

Edited April 29, 2013 by fretmeister

[flyfisher]

So, basically, everyone should have PLI cover to protect themselves for all the possible harm that their own activities and possessions could cause to someone else - and this is nothing to do with being in a band.

Your PA-causing-brain-damage example could just as easily be someone accidentally dropping a camera from a bridge while taking a sightseeing photo and smashing the skull of someone below. Same with cyclists, who could quite easily cause a nasty injury to a pedestrian. I'm sure we could all think of other examples.

So why isn;t the insurance industry pushing PLI cover to everyone in the country? As you say, house insurance usually includes PLI, but what about all those non-home owners out there?

[fretmeister]

The camera example is covered by your Home and Contents insurance. Cyclists too.

There is a good chance that cyclist insurance will become compulsory next year anyway.


Generally, if you are not being paid for something, your house insurance will cover it. If you are being paid or doing a work like activity then it won't and you'll need specific insurance.


I'm a magician. I get my PLI via Equity. Never had to use it, but I do fire tricks. There is no way I'm doing them without PLI!!

[fretmeister]

Don't forget - it could be you with the PA cab on the head.

Do you want the performer you are watching to cough up to make sure your family can eat after you are brain dead?