The first time I heard Jaco.....

[Coilte]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1367392441' post='2064944']
I'm not so dumb that I can't recognise a bass player doing his job properly.
[/quote]

"Properly" is widely open to interpretation. When the bass guitar first came on the scene, it was fitted with what we call a thumb rest, but was situated below the strings. The idea behind this was that plucking with the thumb was considered the "proper" way to play the bass, and the "thumb rest" was an anchor for the fingers. I am sure that a lot of the techniques we take for granted today, would not have been considered to be "proper" back then.

My main point being that the bass guitar is still a comparatively new instrument, and new ways of expressing yourself through it are constantly evolving.

[chris_b]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1367367167' post='2064874']
....I can never understand a lot of bass players' attitude to Jaco. I've spoken with a few over the years who don't like the music. don't like the tone, don't like the bass playing tunes up front etc. etc. All this from players who were themselves barely adequate in my opinion - was it jealousy? Or did they really just simply not understand the music?....
[/quote]

Well Ed. You like Jaco and I don't, so that makes me "barely adequate" and "jealous"?

I'm comfortable with my bass playing ability and opinions, one of which is, it's a pretty immature person who insults people with opposite views.

[fumps]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1367367167' post='2064874']
It's as well that we're all different, eh?

I can never understand a lot of bass players' attitude to Jaco. I've spoken with a few over the years who don't like the music. don't like the tone, don't like the bass playing tunes up front etc. etc. All this from players who were themselves barely adequate in my opinion - was it jealousy? Or did they really just simply not understand the music?

I suppose we are now so far away in time from Jaco's heyday that it's ancient history to a lot of younger players.

So for those who weren't there at the time, I have to tell you that Jaco was a game changer. He took the humble bass guitar and turned it into something extraordinary and we had seen nothing like it. Don't forget that we had no internet, no mobile devices, no youtube - no warning. When I saw him with Weather Report in the late 70's I knew that the way I approach bass could never be the same again, simple as that.

He was the most complete, rounded, musical bass player I ever expect to see and without a doubt, the bravest and most expressive.

I guess the problem is that he didn't fit the mould then and he doesn't fit it again now. In an age when many players aspire to playing a Fender bass with flatwound strings which are mostly covered over with big chrome ashtrays, I can see that they won't like the totally "in yer face" sound of Jaco in full flight but hey - there's always time...tastes change and the cycle goes round again. :-)

One of a kind and my greatest bass hero.

Cheers

Ed
[/quote]

I can see what your saying but no matter how hard I try, I just dont get it at all. Some listen to him & hear virtuoso bass player. I hear a load of straggled notes battered in odd intervals played with a straight face.

Although there is a lot of worship aimed at Jaco but what he does I find personally very ugly to my ears. Heavy weather (I bought before this t'interweb thingumy bob) was one of the only albums I gave away after one listen.

Although he is seen as a legend and as a Bass player I have to worship him......but I dont get it & probably never will.

[Prunesquallor]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1367367167' post='2064874']I have to tell you that Jaco was a game changer. He took the humble bass guitar and turned it into something extraordinary and we had seen nothing like it.[/quote]

Don't we feel that about all our heroes, though? There's probably one player for each of us on this forum that made us think, 'sh*t, I didn't know you could do that.'. For me it was Lemmy. I had heard nothing like it at the age of 14 (and still haven't). For some he's just a rhythm guitarist stuck on the wrong instrument, but for me he carved out his own niche and created his own sound. Although I've moved on a little (to Geddy Lee, Flea, Aston Barrett, etc), some of his best lines still give me goosebumps.

Jaco? I can hear what he does is very capable, but the first time I heard him I thought 'meh, not my kind of thing'.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1367367167' post='2064874']
It's as well that we're all different, eh?

I can never understand a lot of bass players' attitude to Jaco. I've spoken with a few over the years who don't like the music. don't like the tone, don't like the bass playing tunes up front etc. etc. All this from players who were themselves barely adequate in my opinion - was it jealousy? Or did they really just simply not understand the music?

[/quote]

I'm hoping that you mean 'get' rather than 'understand', otherwise you would be coming across as patronising and elitist :-)

A person's adequacy on an instrument, or their understanding of how a musician has made the music, should have no bearing on whether or not they like what they hear.

I am less than adequate on guitar, and don't understand the technicalities of everything he does, but does that mean I can't enjoy John McLaughlin's music? Of course not.
Conversely, I understand what Iron Maiden are doing musically, but just don't 'get' the music.

I like Jaco in small doses. When I discovered Weather Report, I was impressed and awed by the playing, but found that style of fusion a bit cheesy. Some of it is fantastic though.

[Low End Bee]

Pastorius is great in that he divides opinion. At least you won't sit on the fence after hearing him.

[Zenitram]

Well I just listened to the Joni Mitchell Des Moines track that someone recommended. The bass was quite good. As were the drums, the horns, the singing, all good. I didn't get worked up about it either way.

So, er, I'm on the fence.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Zenitram

[Dave Vader]

i quite like him, fairly ambivalent I suppose, count me in the on the fence crowd

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1367396784' post='2064985']
"Properly" is widely open to interpretation. When the bass guitar first came on the scene, it was fitted with what we call a thumb rest, but was situated below the strings. The idea behind this was that plucking with the thumb was considered the "proper" way to play the bass, and the "thumb rest" was an anchor for the fingers. I am sure that a lot of the techniques we take for granted today, would not have been considered to be "proper" back then.

My main point being that the bass guitar is still a comparatively new instrument, and new ways of expressing yourself through it are constantly evolving.
[/quote]

I didn't mean the way he uses his hands - what I mean is the skill of contributing to the song rather then being the focal point of it. That's what I believe is the essence of good bass playing. I watch Jaco and he's usually fret w***ing - like the Vai's and the Satriani's of this world. I'd rather hear a good song well supported than a solo for the sake of showing how good you are.

[Zenitram]

Yes exactly. I'm a drummer more than a bassist (though I'm not much of a drummer), and goodness me, who ever wants to listen to a drum solo? Not bloody me. My girlfriend is an actress in musical theatre, and she gets hacked off at people doing their wailing around the note of a lyric in an effort to impress with their riffing. "Sing the note!" she shouts. It's a bit like that. Sort of. Except it's not, for some people. Whereas for others it is. A bit. Ish.

[Low End Bee]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1367401120' post='2065063']
Well I just listened to the Joni Mitchell Des Moines track that someone recommended. The bass was quite good. As were the drums, the horns, the singing, all good. I didn't get worked up about it either way.

So, er, I'm on the fence.
[/quote]


Fair play. I retract my fence statement. If he doesn't emphatically divide opinions there's nothing for me to like.

[thunderbird13]

Meh - He can play thats for sure , I just dont like what he plays and the sound he gets,

I listened to his solo album once, it didnt do anything for me and I dont think that I've missed out TBH

[xilddx]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1367367167' post='2064874']
It's as well that we're all different, eh?

I can never understand a lot of bass players' attitude to Jaco. I've spoken with a few over the years who don't like the music. don't like the tone, don't like the bass playing tunes up front etc. etc. All this from players who were themselves barely adequate in my opinion - was it jealousy? Or did they really just simply not understand the music?

I suppose we are now so far away in time from Jaco's heyday that it's ancient history to a lot of younger players.

So for those who weren't there at the time, I have to tell you that Jaco was a game changer. He took the humble bass guitar and turned it into something extraordinary and we had seen nothing like it. Don't forget that we had no internet, no mobile devices, no youtube - no warning. When I saw him with Weather Report in the late 70's I knew that the way I approach bass could never be the same again, simple as that.

He was the most complete, rounded, musical bass player I ever expect to see and without a doubt, the bravest and most expressive.

I guess the problem is that he didn't fit the mould then and he doesn't fit it again now. In an age when many players aspire to playing a Fender bass with flatwound strings which are mostly covered over with big chrome ashtrays, I can see that they won't like the totally "in yer face" sound of Jaco in full flight but hey - there's always time...tastes change and the cycle goes round again. :-)

One of a kind and my greatest bass hero.

Cheers

Ed
[/quote]

Don't be dissing people's abilities because they don't like your favourite bass player. That's ridiculous. Barely adequate? Didn't understand the music? What bollocks. That's just competitive and arrogant. We all need a BA in music to appreciate Sibelius now do we? You'll be telling us you are eminently capable of playing and understanding all music and musical instruments shortly when we question you on your opinions of Weather Report? You must be an amazing musician and musicologist mate.

[Coilte]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1367403799' post='2065107']
I didn't mean the way he uses his hands - what I mean is the skill of contributing to the song rather then being the focal point of it. That's what I believe is the essence of good bass playing. I watch Jaco and he's usually fret w***ing - like the Vai's and the Satriani's of this world. I'd rather hear a good song well supported than a solo for the sake of showing how good you are.
[/quote]

I basically agree with your opinions on Jaco. I recognise his talent, but neither his music nor his playing does anything for me.

I was addressing your idea of the "proper" role of the bass in music. Perhaps using the physical side of playing was not the best way to do this, though I'm sure you can see my point here also. Let me try another approach.

Before Jamerson came along, the bass generally played a supportive role in music. We knew it was there, but it was as much implied or felt, as heard. Jamerson's style and interpretation of charts, changed all this. While the bass was still supporting the music, it was doing so in a much more dynamic way. This was not what was regarded as the "proper" way to play up to then.

I am not comparing the two bassists, except to say that they both brought their own unique approach to playing the bass.

[KevB]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1367412326' post='2065281']
Before Jamerson came along, the bass generally played a supportive role in music.
[/quote]

I think for most of the music listening public it still does despite how much we, as bassists, try to convince ourselves otherwise.

[Earbrass]

I bought the solo LP way back because I played bass and I thought I ought to check it out. I didn't really like it, but back then LPs were expensive, and having bought one you tended to persevere with it a bit. I never really got into it though. I quite like some of Jaco's stuff, and there's a couple of tracks that still set my foot tapping (can't remember any names), but most of that American jazz/funk stuff just bores me. It doesn't matter how good a player is if the material they play isn't your cup of tea. I really don't care how good/innovative Jamerson was, because I have no interest in the kind of production-line pop he played on. If that's your thing, then I suppose you'll appreciate him more.

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1367367167' post='2064874']
One of a kind and my greatest bass hero.

[/quote]

I used to have musical heroes. But then I grew up.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Earbrass

[Prunesquallor]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1367413788' post='2065315']
I think for most of the music listening public it still does despite how much we, as bassists, try to convince ourselves otherwise.
[/quote]

That depends on what they like. I enjoyed and preferred more 'active' bass playing way before I picked up one myself. It was one of the things I liked.

[EMG456]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1367367167' post='2064874']
It's as well that we're all different, eh?

I can never understand a lot of bass players' attitude to Jaco. I've spoken with a few over the years who don't like the music. don't like the tone, don't like the bass playing tunes up front etc. etc. All this from players who were themselves barely adequate in my opinion - was it jealousy? Or did they really just simply not understand the music?
[/quote]

I thought this might happen...

let me make it clear icastle, Chris b, Xilddx, Roland Rock and anyone else who thinks I am pre-judging people based on their musical preferences, that I was referring to actual discussions I have had with players in the past, not members (to my knowledge) of this forum. I had heard their bands play and had listened and formed opinions of the relative merits of each player and what I thought their musical contribution was to the overall experience. Who among us doesn't do this when they see a band/ show?

After the gig, stripping the gear down or whatever, the usual discussions would start up - "I liked the sound you were getting", "That's a lovely looking bass", "What's that pedal you're using?" etc. The bass scene was changing and some of the hot topics of the time were players like Pastorius, Stanley Clark, Louis Johnson - guys who were at that time pushing the envelope. I merely observe that in general, the more basic the player, the less likely they were to even recognise the skill and talent involved in guys like Jaco, let alone admit to liking their music. And when I say basic, I'm not talking about highly skilled individuals choosing to play a very simple and restrained part impeccably well- I'm talking about people who are learning their instrument in the best way possible - by going out and doing it- but maybe still have a way to go before they could claim mastery.

We're all on a musical journey and some are further down the road than others. Some are down different roads entirely and that's good - there's room for us all.

And this means there's room for Jaco and his like too. The bass world would be a grey, bland and colourless place if we all had to conform to strict guidelines and I for one am glad it's not.

Hope that clears things up.

Cheers

Ed

[Bilbo]

,Jaco played some great stuff and some dross. He played well on some crap tunes and poorly on some great tunes. For me, when he was hitting, he was hitting and his hit rate was the envy of a generation. He opened doors for me that I didn't even know were closed. What he does for anyone else is of no interest to me. He was 'my man', along with 3 others, and I sometimes still hear him today and go 'wow'. There aren't many that do that anymore.

[fumps]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1367417311' post='2065375']
and I sometimes still hear him today and go 'wow'. There aren't many that do that anymore.
[/quote]
Have you heard many new young players ?
I'm not being pedantic I would just like to know if people who like the greats actually listen to new bands & musicians & listen to how they approach music. (I hope that comes across as a respectful question)

My way of thinking with this is that the greats are always in the past.....I dont think I've ever heard a living young musician that's considered a "great".

[wombatboter]

I've got my busy sixteenth note-feel from him and that has changed my whole bass-style.
I can listen to him in small doses.. I don't think I have ever been able to listen to an entire cd or record but I remain a fan.
He's amongst the greats...

[xilddx]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1367416276' post='2065358']
I thought this might happen...

let me make it clear icastle, Chris b, Xilddx, Roland Rock and anyone else who thinks I am pre-judging people based on their musical preferences, that I was referring to actual discussions I have had with players in the past, not members (to my knowledge) of this forum. I had heard their bands play and had listened and formed opinions of the relative merits of each player and what I thought their musical contribution was to the overall experience. Who among us doesn't do this when they see a band/ show?

After the gig, stripping the gear down or whatever, the usual discussions would start up - "I liked the sound you were getting", "That's a lovely looking bass", "What's that pedal you're using?" etc. The bass scene was changing and some of the hot topics of the time were players like Pastorius, Stanley Clark, Louis Johnson - guys who were at that time pushing the envelope. I merely observe that in general, the more basic the player, the less likely they were to even recognise the skill and talent involved in guys like Jaco, let alone admit to liking their music. And when I say basic, I'm not talking about highly skilled individuals choosing to play a very simple and restrained part impeccably well- I'm talking about people who are learning their instrument in the best way possible - by going out and doing it- but maybe still have a way to go before they could claim mastery.

We're all on a musical journey and some are further down the road than others. Some are down different roads entirely and that's good - there's room for us all.

[b]And this means there's room for Jaco and his like too. The bass world would be a grey, bland and colourless place if we all had to conform to strict guidelines and I for one am glad it's not.[/b]

Hope that clears things up.

Cheers

Ed
[/quote]

Of course there's room for Jaco, no-one's suggesting there isn't. There's also room for people who don't like what he did. There are also plenty of non-musicians and 'basic' musicians who love his work. There are also 'complicated' musicians who like Paul Simonon. I just don't get all this crap about about having to have a certain skill level on a musical instrument to appreciate the virtuosos, it's totally wrong.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1367416276' post='2065358']

We're all on a musical journey and some are further down the road than others.

[/quote]

Music isn't a competition.

[visog]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1367401120' post='2065063']
Well I just listened to the Joni Mitchell Des Moines track that someone recommended. The bass was quite good. As were the drums, the horns, the singing, all good. I didn't get worked up about it either way.

So, er, I'm on the fence.
[/quote]

Jaco did the horn arrangement on this tune too BTW...

[spongebob]

I think Jaco strikes a chord - for me - is that there's so much going on, but I still find soul in his playing.

His playing on the 'Night Passage' album I really do like (then again, I like all of it TBH!) - not flash for flash's sake (like a bass Eddie Van Halen or something) but a classy player with groove, soul, and above all, passion.

Jaco and his bass were 'at one' in my opinion. [size=4] [/size]