Bilbo Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='iceonaboy' timestamp='1367586238' post='2067256'] Maybe its just me, but I think all jazz players make it up as they go along anyway [/quote] And THAT'S why it is hard!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1367586448' post='2067262'] And THAT'S why it is hard!! [/quote] I dare you to play straight 8 root notes for a whole song Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1367586622' post='2067269'] I dare you to play straight 8 root notes for a whole song [/quote] A great player - in any gendre - would know when that is exactly the best thing to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I wrote a song with straight eights in it last night. That bit sounds better than the complicated bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1367586622' post='2067269'] I dare you to play straight 8 root notes for a whole song [/quote] Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.... Look up Racing For Home: No Quarter on youtube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1367584954' post='2067238'] Interstingly, when Branford Marsalis finished the Sting tours, he said that going back to Jazz was hard because he had to get back into [i]thinking[/i] (rather than playing) that fast. I think Mike has a point; it is not the chops that are missing, it is the ability to translate your mental idea into a physically executed line that is lacking when you are not hitting the mark. [/quote] Totally - it's not about having insane chops - take Charlie Haden for an example of someone who has fairly limited technique but plays all the 'right' notes... or Steve Swallow who rarely plays faster than 8th notes but sounds sublime - for guys like that it's the thinking (and listening) behind the notes that matters - not how many of the damn things you can play in a bar. For me it really is about listening and being able to react fast enough - when I'm off my game it's my reaction times that suck - but then I think building self confidence is also about saying this is who I am and this is how I do it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumble Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1367585618' post='2067249'] PS: Off topic, but this seems like a good place to let y'all know that the programme for this year's Manchester Jazz Festival was announced yesterday: [url="http://www.manchesterjazz.com/festival-programme-2013/"]http://www.mancheste...programme-2013/[/url] If anyone's coming up for it then let me know. I'll be mooching around as much as I can... [/quote] Whoah ! Mr Scruff at The Band On The Wall, I'm going to pencil that one in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I misread this as playing jazz is well hard. I was thinking that Bilbo was trying to get down wiv da yoof innit.... As is it, it's true, when you are constantly shifting key/mode/time signature with little or no rehearsal, the speed of thought required is mind blowingly fast. And these aren't the sort of gigs where you can just thump straight 8 roots for a few bars while you find your place. People notice. Give me long enough to prepare and I can do it, but normally when trying to run this stuff, I am realising what I should have done 3 bars ago and failing to look more than one or 2 bars ahead, brown trouser time..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1367585618' post='2067249'] PS: Off topic, but this seems like a good place to let y'all know that the programme for this year's Manchester Jazz Festival was announced yesterday: [url="http://www.manchesterjazz.com/festival-programme-2013/"]http://www.mancheste...programme-2013/[/url] If anyone's coming up for it then let me know. I'll be mooching around as much as I can... [/quote] fantastic, I've been waiting for the programme to be released, I'll be heading down to as much of this as I can get to too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Nice eclectic programme. I'd like to see the Felonious Monks! (melodious funk?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 A very aptly timed thread as I've blagged a gig at Cheltenham Jazz Festival next week and I'd never, ever say that I was a jazzer! Glad I'm not the only one who struggles with the brain speed jazz requires or who finds "proper" jazzers intimidating. What I'm learning is that you have to think like a jazzer, if you can't hear it, guessing you're way round a chart just don't work. Back to the wood shed for me, and some proper analysis required! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisthebass Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1367580515' post='2067145'] If you are playing 120 gigs a year with guys at a high level, you are going to be improving dramatically without even realising it! You must be doing something right to get the work in the first place... [/quote] Truth . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1367602237' post='2067516'] A very aptly timed thread as I've blagged a gig at Cheltenham Jazz Festival next week and I'd never, ever say that I was a jazzer! Glad I'm not the only one who struggles with the brain speed jazz requires or who finds "proper" jazzers intimidating. What I'm learning is that you have to think like a jazzer, if you can't hear it, guessing you're way round a chart just don't work. Back to the wood shed for me, and some proper analysis required! [/quote] You may be in good company because 'tis said that there aren't too many jazzers at the CJF anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 [quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1367582819' post='2067194'] That's a bit like saying "That Einstein bloke was a bit clever, an all, but could he install a gas cooker? Could he f***." [/quote] He couldn't though could he? He's not CORGI registered! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 @bilbo, that's a great post. IMO what you've described is the irrational 'fear of getting found out' that lots of us suffer from in all walks of life! You're clearly a very accomplished player and I'm pretty sure that all decent musicians who aren't completely deluded go through the same thought process. From reading about and listening to jazz my theory is that only the true greats really 'get' all aspects of the harmony of what they're playing. But this shouldn't stop the rest of us from trying our best and having fun at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rOB Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 It is indeed hard. I have heaps of respect for anyone working to be better at something that's difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbyrne Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 "Playing jazz is well hard" There, fixed it for you!!!!! G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 I listen to a lot of jazz, but have never felt confident trying to play it in public. I think part of this is that unlike in most other genres, the standard of musicians playing in small venues around town is scarily high (most of them have spend a number of years in full-time study from an early age) , and I feel strongly that a dabbler like me will be shown up! There is also a negative attitude I've witnessed a couple of times at open jam sessions, where whenever a less-confident newbie turns up, the regulars will do their best to call tunes which are way over their head (like expecting a double bassist to solo on Giant Steps or play Charlie Parker heads). I'm sure this doesn't happen everywhere, but it can put people off participating in their local jazz scene and gaining that experience which would help them improve their skills. When this kind of thing happens, it makes the jazz scene look like less fun than doing other kinds of gig, however musically satisfying it might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted May 4, 2013 Author Share Posted May 4, 2013 I have to say that is not my experience. Most musos I have known are pretty indulgent at jam sessions. I have seen the most appaling train wrecks resulting in positive responses. I have been roasted more than once but never maliciously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1367662480' post='2068045'] I have to say that is not my experience. Most musos I have known are pretty indulgent at jam sessions. I have seen the most appaling train wrecks resulting in positive responses. I have been roasted more than once but never maliciously. [/quote] It may well have been just a couple of guys who were attending that one particular jam a few years back. I've often found musicians at the free/experimental end of things to be very approachable and pleasant though, to the point where I once played a set with Lol Coxhill before I really knew who he was, and that was great fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1367578050' post='2067108'] I have been (mostly) playing Jazz now since about 1985. THe level of gigging has gone from minimal (4 or 5 a year) to overwhelming (120 a year). With some rare exceptions, the bands have not been rehearsed and, in many cases, have included people I have rarely played with. Most of the tunes I have played most of the time have been things I am only superficially aware of and I have been reading chord charts and improvising around sequences the knowledge of which is, at best, peripheral. Some of these charts are going past like s*** off a stick and there are lots of strange symbols and extensions designed purely to humiliate me. A lot of the work I have done is massively flawed and I deeply admire those players who can make something beautiful out of a sequence that, by its very nature, puts rocks in your path. I don't consider myself to be one of those players. I can find my way around a basic standard but lob in a few slash chords, some obscure harmony and I am easily thrown. I can usually figure out a way through, given time, but, because most of the gigs I do don't allow for that level of preparation, that time is mostly after the fact. Playing Jazz, as an improvising Art form, is a high risk undertaking. I was wondering, therefore, given all the above 'environmental factors', why I think it is EVER going to be anything but grimly inadequate. [/quote] OK trite answer - surely with a slash chord you just play the note after the slash Some more random philosophical observations ... Are you perhaps chasing the wrong dream ? you've obviously developed "cold" playing (i.e. playing previously largely unseen unheard material) to a very high degree certainly way above the the level I and probably most others reading this thread could ever achieve. But is such cold playing using score/charts, even at the highest level of proficiency, really "art" ? can one really construct something of beauty without having first fully internalised the song by playing it many many times - how many memorable jazz recordings are the result of a bunch of people playing the song for the very first time from dots/charts ?. Edited May 4, 2013 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Kind of blue? Best selling jazz album ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 [quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1367674072' post='2068254'] Kind of blue? Best selling jazz album ever. [/quote] What he said. About 7 hours and it was done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 [quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1367674072' post='2068254'] Kind of blue? Best selling jazz album ever. [/quote] According to wikipedia ... " the persistent legend that the entire album was recorded in one pass is untrue" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Still only took a couple of days, and most of it was first take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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