Question about drums in Logic

[MiltyG565]

I'm creating a drum track in Logic for a cover I want to do. I could use a multi-track I suppose, but where's the fun in that, eh? Anyway, I can get all the parts lined up where they should be, i.e. bass beats, snare, hi-hat, but how do I stop it sounding so... programmed? Is there any way to make it sound more natural and open? I can't seem to get a reverb that sounds nice on it, they sound a bit programmed too (I suppose because they are DURR ).

Anyway, Advice is welcome And I may have some more questions further down the line with this one. Thanks

[Twigman]

what samples are you using?

I find it best using a drum sample player that uses layered samples so that at differing velocities different samples play. [Battery3 for electronic sounding / Superior Drummer2 for acousticdrums]
I also find that varying the velocity to reflect how a drummer hits his skins then adds a groove/ vibe to it - this will only work if the kit you play uses velocity layered samples..
Also vary the timing slightly as not all drummers are metronomic.

There a few other tricks especially when it comes to getting fills to sound natural...eg put the fill 15ticks (of 960) late...this reflects the drummer's 'thinking time'....

Edit: oh and ghost notes make it sound more real

and balancing the close and room mics (assuming your sample player has them) will probably create enough reverb in itself..

Edited May 8, 2013 by Twigman

[xilddx]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1368016811' post='2072059']
what samples are you using?

I find it best using a drum sample player that uses layered samples so that at differing velocities different samples play. [Battery3 for electronic sounding / Superior Drummer2 for acousticdrums]
I also find that varying the velocity to reflect how a drummer hits his skins then adds a groove/ vibe to it - this will only work if the kit you play uses velocity layered samples..
Also vary the timing slightly as not all drummers are metronomic.

There a few other tricks especially when it comes to getting fills to sound natural...eg put the fill 15ticks (of 960) late...[b]this reflects the drummer's 'thinking time'....[/b]

Edit: oh and ghost notes make it sound more real

and balancing the close and room mics (assuming your sample player has them) will probably create enough reverb in itself..
[/quote]

[Twigman]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1368021828' post='2072128']

[/quote]

your point?

Try it, it works....

For years I've been trying to get fills to sound more natural.......drummers, in reality tend to pause before they start a roll...they've been 'in the groove' and then realise sh*t I have to do something else and it always happens 'late'....

Edited May 8, 2013 by Twigman

[xilddx]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1368022224' post='2072136']
your point?
[/quote]

Drummers thinking.

Mate, I know we don't get on, but not everything I write is having a pop at you, you know. If we ever meet I'll get the beers in.

Edited May 8, 2013 by xilddx

[xilddx]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1368022224' post='2072136']
your point?

Try it, it works....

For years I've been trying to get fills to sound more natural.......drummers, in reality tend to pause before they start a roll...they've been 'in the groove' and then realise sh*t I have to do something else and it always happens 'late'....
[/quote]

Yeah, I've been programming drums since the HR16, it took f***ing ages to get natural feel, but I use EZDrummer now and it's really easy, it's very human to start with. Maybe Milty is using Ultrabeat, I've only dicked around with it for a few hours, it seems like an amazing piece of kit, but I haven't done a rock drum track in earnest so I can't say how natural it sounds.

[Twigman]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1368022357' post='2072139']

Mate, I know we don't get on, [/quote]
Really? Hadn't really noticed.
[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1368022357' post='2072139']
but not everything I write is having a pop at you,[/quote]
Do I really seem that paranoid?
[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1368022357' post='2072139']
you know. If we ever meet I'll get the beers in.
[/quote]
Scotch & Ginger, ta, a large one

[xilddx]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1368022702' post='2072150']
Really? Hadn't really noticed.

Do I really seem that paranoid?

Scotch & Ginger, ta, a large one
[/quote]

[MiltyG565]

Eh... I was quite surprised to see 7 replies to this... now I know

Anyway, I'm justing using the drums that Logic has. No fancy plugin unfortunately. I have a fair bit of it tracked already (over a few tracks so mixing will be easier) but it just sounds a bit robotic still.

[charic]

If you copy and paste it will sound like you copy and pasted

Maybe try things like these?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jARlecFBXhQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jARlecFBXhQ[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SAljfVnc2Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SAljfVnc2Q[/url]

[MiltyG565]

Cheers!

[Skol303]

Good suggestions above.

As Twig mentions, a reliable yet time-consuming method is to nudge the drum hits just before or after the positions they appear in if rigidly quantized. Nudging before adds feeling of 'urgency' to the beat; nudging after makes it sound more 'relaxed'. Nudging too much just makes it sound like the drummer is drunk (for ultra realism...). Experiment to find out what feels right for the song you're working on.

A much quicker method - and one I'm using a lot at the moment - is to 'play' and record the drums live using a MIDI keyboard (or your computer keyboard). Takes a bit of practice bit it can sound quite convincing! Try recording it in different takes: kick and snare first, then record a different take for hats and cymbals (or record each to a separate track if you prefer). This video might help inspire you (fast forward a bit as it's slow to get going...).

http://www.propellerheads.se/mmm/index.cfm?fuseaction=eventinfo&EID=1

Plan C? Use pre-recorded loops. No shame in that - it's the backbone of software like EZ Drummer and used extensively in even 'pro' studios. There's a bazillion loops for all genres available online. Try this:

http://bit.ly/ZI7mpF

Plan D? Beatbox!!

[MiltyG565]

Cheers Paul

I'm trying to recreate an already existing beat as best I can, I doubt it would be in a beat-library. And at the unusual speed of 123bpm...

The "humanise" thing seems to be working. It alters the volume and spacing (or placement) of the sounds to give it some human dynamics.

[Skol303]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1368038628' post='2072440']Cheers Paul [/quote]

No worries mate! Good to hear you've found a solution. Be sure to share the track here once you're finished with it

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1368039602' post='2072470']
No worries mate! Good to hear you've found a solution. Be sure to share the track here once you're finished with it
[/quote]

I definitely will, but it could be a week or 2!

[Twigman]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1368038628' post='2072440']

I'm trying to recreate an already existing beat as best I can, I doubt it would be in a beat-library. [b]And at the unusual speed of 123bpm...[/b]


[/quote]
The beauty of using pre-programmed midi loops is that the tempo is largely irrelevant - they will assume the tempo of your project.

Check out Groove Monkee and the like...

I know the midi files from Toontrack (makers of EZdrummer & Superior Drummer) have been recorded using real drummers and can be used with any drum sample player.

[ironside1966]

Think like a drummer:
to be aware of how a real drummer would play. If the aim is to create natural-sounding drum parts, though, you need to think about what a drummer is physically capable of playing at any given time. Two toms being played at the same time as a ride, crash and hi-hat, for example, is likely to sound ‘wrong’ because a drummer has only four limbs! Similarly, you wouldn’t usually hear any hi-hats during a tom fill or maybe a snare hit. I gave each individual hit a different velocity with a slight emphasis placed on the beat of the drummer’s stronger arm. Also moved the snare drum off quantize a few milliseconds late to get a more relaxed feel or visa versa. If a drummer plays two things at once like kick and a cymbal one would be played slightly earlier the other. also after a drummer hits a cymbal they would take a second or so to get back to playing the hi hats
Vary the hi hat patens an maybe use in some triplets if appropriate for the song.

Choice of sounds:
It is tempting to chose the biggest punchiest drum samples you have but they can sound out of place it is often the weaker sounds with a bit of processing that comes up trumps, choose the sounds carefully

[BigRedX]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1368038628' post='2072440']
Cheers Paul

I'm trying to recreate an already existing beat as best I can, I doubt it would be in a beat-library. And at the unusual speed of 123bpm...

The "humanise" thing seems to be working. It alters the volume and spacing (or placement) of the sounds to give it some human dynamics.
[/quote]

I've found that the easiest way to recreate the feel of an existing loop at a new tempo is to put the loop into something like ReCycle! and turn it either into a REX file (which can then be turned into an Apple Loop) or to extract a MIDI file from the timing information that can then be used as a groove template in Logic.

Bear in mind that the timing irregularities that make the drums sound and feel right at one tempo may not work as well at a different one. If I'm going to use a loop at a very different tempo, I'll try and find another loop at the right tempo with the right feel to use as a groove template.