Gareth Hughes Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 Hey folks - I'm hoping some of you more technically minded people can help me with this conundrum: I have a few Epifani cabs which I love for the most part. The part I don't love is that they can be mid-shy with certain amps, in particular my Genz Benz Streamliner. So my question is this - rather than selling these cabs and buying ones that are reported to have more mid-range emphasis, like some Gallien Krueger cabs or the Genz Benz Focus cabs, can I use a parametric DI to bring the mid-range back to life or am I trying to shine a light on something that isn't there in the first place? I have tried using the extra EQ approach, and it seems to work for the most part, but the downside is that it alters the DI signal a little too much, so it's fixing one problem but creating another at the same time. Any help and advice is much appreciated. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 Usually you cannot put back what is not there. However, a graphic before the amp may allow you to cut the frequencies that you have too much of & maybe even a slight boost to where the missing frequencies are could help too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Hughes Posted May 11, 2013 Author Share Posted May 11, 2013 [quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1368268888' post='2075101'] Usually you cannot put back what is not there. However, a graphic before the amp may allow you to cut the frequencies that you have too much of & maybe even a slight boost to where the missing frequencies are could help too. [/quote] Yep, that's the problem. And cutting the lows to accentuate the mids seems to result in a bit of an anemic sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 Sounds like you don't like the cabs. Go for neutral sounding cab and use the eq for tone is the way if you like using EQ. Should never be fighting cabs with EQ. Cabs with a sound are for when you don't have/like using EQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Hughes Posted May 11, 2013 Author Share Posted May 11, 2013 Mr.Foxen - you're right. Ish. I love the cabs for my electric basses, and with my Markbass head, but for my upright bass and the Streamliner they just seem to have a blanket over them. And I'm reluctant to sell them because they work in so many ways but one. And then the geek in me wants to get another neutral cab, but then it feels like a case of having a cab for Monday, a cab for Tuesday, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 (edited) Looks like the clue is in; "they can be mid-shy with certain amps". That implies that with other amps the cabs aren't mid shy . That would make me think that the amp is to blame as much as the cabs. The Streamliner has very limited EQ and has a big "pillowy" bass, as do Epifani cabs, therefore all this low end is probably overpowering what mids there are. Edited May 11, 2013 by chris_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Hughes Posted May 11, 2013 Author Share Posted May 11, 2013 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1368273925' post='2075173']... That would make me think that the amp is to blame as much as the cabs. The Streamliner has very limited EQ and has a big "pillowy" bass, as do Epifani cabs, therefore all this low end is probably overpowering what mids there are. [/quote] Yep, and that's the conundrum - wanting to use, and not have to replace, my Epifani cabs because they work great in some regards but with the Streamliner not so much. I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too. And not end up with a pile of different cabs!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 Sounds like a fundemental mismatch ...in the end you will sell one of other of the components that isn't working in this instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBod Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 For the upright, try using the amp as a power amp only...and go direct into the effects return. You'll need an active preamp/DI but there are many of those around these days (something like the Fishman, Sansamp, Sadowsky, Aguilar etc etc). That takes one voicing out of the situation and allows you to replace it with something more "neutral" or suited to your upright. Might not be a complete solution, but I've had a pretty good success rate with GK's and SWR's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 [quote name='Gareth Hughes' timestamp='1368274944' post='2075187'] Yep, and that's the conundrum - wanting to use, and not have to replace, my Epifani cabs because they work great in some regards but with the Streamliner not so much. I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too. And not end up with a pile of different cabs!!! [/quote] Use a different amp?? The LMK should do fine since its eq is pretty flat at 12o clcok. The streamliner uses a tone stack similar to the fender bassman, natural mid scoop with boosted lows and highs, flat will more likely ne the bass at 9/10 o'clock and the mids boosted nearly to 3 o clock. You need to figure out what you need from your amp. Personally my sous is eq'd without an amp or cab, as that is what either goes to desk or to FOH, the amp's eq is used to help me hear on stage and that is about it, when the sound has to be from my amp then I EQ to the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 I don't find the Streamliner to have a large scoop. Maybe a little one all set at 12, but a few clicks and that's out of the way. If a cab has a mid hole, it's harder to get amps to work with it. Good cabs with a nice mid bump: TC RS cabs GK Neo 115/212 Aguilar DB cabs ...apparently the Berg CNs are great for low mid punch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Hughes Posted May 11, 2013 Author Share Posted May 11, 2013 Folks - thanks for all the food for thought. More experiments will continue. I like the bypassing the amp pre and going straight into the power amp idea, but the Streamliner pre really is lovely. There's a softness to it that I'm loving after a lifetime of being a solidstate user. And for that reason I'm finding the Markbass LMK a little too dry sounding now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 I've seen threads on Talkbass about changing the valves in a Streamliner and improving the tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 [quote name='Gareth Hughes' timestamp='1368313636' post='2075686'] Folks - thanks for all the food for thought. More experiments will continue. I like the bypassing the amp pre and going straight into the power amp idea, but the Streamliner pre really is lovely. There's a softness to it that I'm loving after a lifetime of being a solidstate user. And for that reason I'm finding the Markbass LMK a little too dry sounding now. [/quote] I agree. The tone is very warm. Stunning preamp design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 One man's "warm" is another man's "boomy". The idea of bypassing the Streamliner's pre is a good one for the specific use the OP has in mind. Compared to "most" amps the Streamliner is noticeably mid-scooped, intolerably so for me, whatever I did. But then we're all looking for different tones. To the OP - I'm assuming that you've read the enormous EQing thread on Talkbass ...... [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-streamliner-600-900-tone-control-primer-813663/"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-streamliner-600-900-tone-control-primer-813663/[/url] Where real measurements with real instruments and frequency analysis confirm that the Streamliner is mid-scooped. Anyway, if you read the thread it is an invaluable resource for any Streamliner owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Hughes Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 Thanks for the link Hamfist - I've read thru all of it over the past few months in search of ideas. I think a big problem is simply user error - the eq and input controls operate in such a drastically different way from what I've been using the last 20 years, so it's a steep learning curve that one is never too far away from falling off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 The Streamliner has a particular tone stack that is both interactive and not immediately intuitive (hence that loooong Talkbass thread) and is proving in the longer term to be a Marmite amp. Mine works really well with my Schroeder 1515, which is another heavily voiced oddity. It happens, though, that they are a very good match for each other: one mid-shy(ish), one with a biiig low-mid bump. To my ears (and I've AB'd this a lot) the Schroeder suits the Streamliner better than the Barefaced Super 12T, which is somewhat of a paragon of a cab these days. By simple substitution, it's clear that the mid-shyness is the amp rather than the cabs, so I'd slog away at the EQ of the amp for a while yet. It took me weeks to get to grips with it, but I'm happy with it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 I understand an amp is for everyone, but there are so many amps with the same small mid dip its unreal...but because it hasn't become an Internet myth (all Stingrays are one trick ponys etc) no one worries. Check out some of the Gallien amps. Most of them have a similar if not more extreme flat tone. The new MBs have a huge low end, lots if aggressive sizzle, and a dip in the mids. Orange, Fender, even Mesa amps can have it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1368353926' post='2075927'] I understand an amp is for everyone, but there are so many amps with the same small mid dip its unreal...but because it hasn't become an Internet myth (all Stingrays are one trick ponys etc) no one worries. Check out some of the Gallien amps. Most of them have a similar if not more extreme flat tone. The new MBs have a huge low end, lots if aggressive sizzle, and a dip in the mids. Orange, Fender, even Mesa amps can have it too. [/quote] I think some companies do it for pure lazyness/cheapness. GB seemed to have done it on purpose, they haven't hid what the tone stack is like, its meant to be that way for pure oldschool people, of you want flat and clean they have the shuttles and shuttlemax. I don't mind the mid dip but personally I like a flat reponse as I fond it easyier to work with on a gig, and most of the time its minu te changes, where as if there is a mid scoop I ave that to contend with too. And equate common on this kind of toe stack is that the frequency bands blend at too much into each other. If you are relying on your cab and amp purely for the bass sound then personally that mkes it even more difficult to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1368353926' post='2075927'] I understand an amp is for everyone, but there are so many amps with the same small mid dip its unreal...but because it hasn't become an Internet myth (all Stingrays are one trick ponys etc) no one worries. Check out some of the Gallien amps. Most of them have a similar if not more extreme flat tone. The new MBs have a huge low end, lots if aggressive sizzle, and a dip in the mids. Orange, Fender, even Mesa amps can have it too. [/quote] That's true of the GK MB amps, though there is still some scope for dialling back the bass and treble and turning up the two mid controls to get things close to flat if desired. I saw a post on Talkbass where a guy had measured the response on the MB200 and found the flattest setting to be treble and bass at 10 o'clock and high and low mids at 2 and 1 o'clock. I would appreciate it if amp manufacturers told us this in their manuals as it helps to know where you're starting from with EQ, especially if you want to recreate your sound on other equipment. A bit of a dip in the mids can be flattering with a passive bass (where you've got shedloads of mid to start with, and can stand to lose a little) and I can see why the amp designers do it. The problems arise when something else in the signal chain also has that mid scoop (like many onboard preamps or certain cabs), and things start to sound a little overcooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Manufacturers are kind of stuck with the need to provide eq to people who don't know how to operate it, hence the flat setting not being in the middle, so their amp has 'a sound'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 I tend to struggle once you have a mid dip cab, a bass heavy amp, and a jazz bass! Mid dips all over the place. Sounds nice though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Sounds lovely on its own, sadly it'll disappear in a lot of live band setups. Took me an age to realise that Pleasing Solo Sound does not equal Pleasing Ensemble Sound... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 [quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1368388853' post='2076514'] Sounds lovely on its own, sadly it'll disappear in a lot of live band setups. Took me an age to realise that Pleasing Solo Sound does not equal Pleasing Ensemble Sound... [/quote] Spot-on Muzz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Hughes Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share Posted May 12, 2013 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1368388674' post='2076510'] I tend to struggle once you have a mid dip cab, a bass heavy amp, and a jazz bass! Mid dips all over the place. Sounds nice though. [/quote] This sums up my set-up to a T!!!! It's a cruel irony that I love all of these elements but they just won't play nice with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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