Electro-acoustic bass setup

[sblueplanet]

My friend has asked if I can improve the action on his Alliance VP 800B electro-acoustic bass. It has a fixed bridge like most acoustic guitars and the truss rod is accessed just behind the sound-hole.

At present it is pretty high and I'm wondering if I can try to take out the string saddle and sand it down with a possible quarter-turn tweak on the truss-rod. Has anyone tried this on an acoustic bass with success?

Also, the bass is currently fitted with bronze roundwound strings. Would it be possible to put on normal bass steel flatwounds?

[Junkyard Rocket]

The truss rod is not there to adjust the string height. It adjusts the amount of relief. If there is too much relief in the neck tighten the truss rod; if not don't touch it. One the relief is set correctly then consider whether the saddle is the correct height.

[BassBus]

Also have a look across the front of the instrument from the side. The front should be flat when strung and tuned to pitch. If there is a rise of any sort that might indicate a problem. That's a big job to sort.

As Junkyard Rocket said, check the relief of the neck. Hold down the E string at the first fret (capo it if you want). Then fret that string at the fret where the neck joins the body. Look at how far you have to press the string down to fret it while holding these two points. If it's more than about 1mm then tighten the truss rod a bit. Tightening the truss rod, if it needs it, will also lower the action a bit.

[3below]

All advice above is good. What is 'pretty high'? how many mm high at 12th fret? Remember too low and the bass will lose volume and tone.

[sblueplanet]

Cheers guys.

I don't have the bass in my possession yet to look it over again and take any measurements but I'll be very cautious if I do attempt anything, especially since it's not mine.

I suggested putting bass into a luthier so maybe he will find out a cost for that. He's a keyboard player who likes to dabble on bass so I think he assimes it isn't complicated to sort action issues etc.

Maybe a luthier will know if regular steel flats can be put on. The guy doesn't like the bronze roundwounds.

[BassBus]

Flats will work fine. As will nylon wound strings.

[Chiliwailer]

Be very very careful when sanding the saddle, the pick up is under it so if the saddle is not perfectly flat it will damage the piezo pickup.

I bet you the nut is high too, fret a string at the first fret, if the string action comes down alot then it needs cutting.

I use flatwounds on my electro acoustic bass, they sound amazing and much more rootsy and natural, bronze strings have too many mids and sound especially bad on cheaper acoustic basses.

[EssentialTension]

Flats is fine. I've got TI Jazz Flats on one and Rotsound Trubass on another. La Bella Black Nylons work well too. Personally, I hate those bronze acoustic strings.

I agree with the rest of Clarky's advice.

[sblueplanet]

Thanks.
I was expecting to get bass to look over last week but hasn't happened.
I had forgotten about the pickup placement. Glad its cool to use flats. They feel great to the touch.

[sblueplanet]

What gauge would help lower the action? A light 45-100 or medium 55-105 gauge?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='sblueplanet' timestamp='1369609662' post='2090924']
What gauge would help lower the action? A light 45-100 or medium 55-105 gauge?
[/quote]
What strings though? Gauge on its own tells very little.

But if you're meaning the same make/model of strings in each case then the heavier gauge will have more tension and the action will perhaps be a little higher with no truss rod tweak.

Bear in mind that, especially on acoustic instruments, higher action might be associated with more volume and improved tonal performance.

[sblueplanet]

I see. Never really thought that through.
I think it would be Fender steel flats going on.
The guy who owns the acousto-electric would like action a lot lower as he's a keyboard player and just dabbles in bass.
Im thinking of changing the strings to flats first before tackling any bridge issues.

[EssentialTension]

I would definitely put the new strings on and leave it a while to settle before doing anything else.

[bbrich]

I've been looking at doing the same with my Ovation Applause AE140. I only use it for practice but, compared to my electric basses which have all been professionaly set up, the action is frustrating. It not [i]that[/i] high, just not low enough for me. Its between 5 and 6mm at the 12th fret compared to 2.5mm on my electrics.

When you study an acoustic instrument it doesn't take long to work out that there really aren't any simple adjustments that can be made, other than the truss rod which only has a marginal affect on string height. If the neck to body joint has changed due to years of string tension trying to 'force' the neck down into the body in front of the sound hole, then its probably impossible to fix from a practical point of view at least.

However, if the neck joint and body have not distorted then its the saddle that will have to be lowered. As mentioned earlier in the thread, depending on the type of pickup fitted, it may prove to be a complicated job. On the Ovation the underside of the saddle is 'castellated' so that it contacts the piezzo pickup in a particular way - making it very difficult to simply shave a milimetre or so off it. I don't know if the Alliance 800 is like that but its easy to find out. Just completely slacken the strings off and carefully ease the saddle out of its slot with soft pliers or tweezers - taking care not to scratch, chip, break or damage it in any way. Then you can see what the underside is like and make a decision.

Having seen my bridge I gave up any ideas I had of doing the job myself and took to Google UK. After an hour or so (!!) I stumbled across this website http://www.chrisalsopguitar.co.uk He doesn't really mention acoustic basses much but all the principles are the same. There is a lot of useful information on this site even if the layout is a bit amateur. I've learned a lot just wading my way through it. He doesn't just talk about action height, he goes into the ins and outs of intonation - another non-adjustable aspect of acoustic instruments. You may want to check the implications of changing the gauge, type and manufacturer of strings. They all have an effect on intonation and different guages will have a different "pull" on the neck which can also affect the truss rod adjustment, the string height and possibly the neck-body relationship over time. Most of the acoustics I've tried or owned have had Light or Med-Light fitted. I've always assumed this was to keep the tension as low as possible so I've never gone more than a 100 gauge on the E string.

I've decided that the next time I'm in the UK (I work in the Middle East) I'm going to send my Ovation saddle to this guy and request that he makes me two new ones with lowered heights AND compensated to fix an intonation problem I have with the E string. Probably gonna cost me forty quid or so. For me I think its worth the money it if takes the frustration out of trying to practice quietly. Incidentally, I'd never dream of trying to use an acoustic bass on stage, they feedback like crazy and I haven't heard one yet that sounds any good including both of mine, a few I've tried in shops and even one 'thousand-dollar-plus' Martin that a local chap plays.

Don't give up though - its 'do-able', just might not be quick.

Edited May 31, 2013 by bbrich

[sblueplanet]

Thanks @bbrich. That's some sensible advice.

[bbrich]

Six months later…

In the end Mr Alsop refused to take on the job of modifying my Ovation bridge saddle. He said that he just wasn't set up for working on bass saddles and the cost of gearing up for a "one-off" would be prohibitive. Honest enough I suppose. So, left with no other option I decided to tackle the job myself.

After accurately measuring the existing saddle for length, height and thickness I then spent hours, days and weeks scouring the net both sides of the Atlantic trying to find an exact-fit bridge saddle for this particular Ovation. Due to the "castellations" on the underside of the saddle I failed to source one. That meant that the only option would be to replace both the saddle and the piezo pickup. More internet searches to try and find the right kind of pickup. Turns out that they're virtually all made by one company in Korea - Artec.

Having sourced and bought the correct length of 4-string piezo pickup it was then relatively easy to find a matching saddle. My investigations had led me to believe that a "bone" saddle was going to sound brighter and possibly louder than a plastic one. So I got one of those as well. Now all I had to do was fit it all together, check the action and then gradually shave the bottom of the saddle until the correct string height was achieved. This has to be done very carefully. The underside of the saddle has to stay perfectly flat and "square" otherwise it won't contact the piezo correctly and both the sound and the sustain will suffer.

I also had to modify the battery box inside the body of the guitar (long story, too boring) and with that done and the saddle carefully filed to the required height I checked the intonation on my tuner. Perfect. String height about 2mm at the 12th fret on E and proportionate on A, D & G. Success - but it took a long time, a lot of research, quite a bit of hacking and a "what the heck, its only a practice guitar" approach, but I got there in the end and learned a lot on the way.

I now have a practice instrument sat in my lounge that I can pick up and play at any time and it has the same action as my electrics. The only down-side is that as I lowered the action the acoustic volume lowered as well. For me that wasn't a problem.

Conclusion? Hmm, I think my patience and diligence paid off but I also think I got lucky! Don't tackle this job unless you're prepared for possible failure.

[sblueplanet]

Well done with all that effort.
After I stuck some light Fender flats on I left it a few weeks. Bass prob plays slighter better but not much. I'm not going to tacklr saddle or bridge adjustment even though its something Im confident doing on electrics.