Musical Copyright - a bit of a strange one

[Wolverinebass]

I'm looking for a bit of advice from those of you who have some experience in this. About a year ago one of my friends was singing in a band. In it he was the singer, so although he didn't write any of the music by playing it, he arranged what was there and wrote all the vocal melodies etc.

Fast forward through some very unpleasantness to now. In a musical project I'm doing with him, he wanted to record 2 of the 7 songs that his ex-band had written. However, this is where the plot thickens somewhat. His ex-bandmates have re-recruited their old singer and have been recording a "new" album less than 6 months later. I'm sure you can see where this is going.

The other night I noticed that they were playing not that far down the road from where we live so I said to my mate that maybe we should pop along if he was concerned that they had ripped stuff off. Sure enough, they played a “new” song which although didn’t utilise any of the previous words, there was certainly a bit of melody overlap and the arrangement was slightly different, but still notably similar.

I thought that they’d have used at least 4 songs which we found out to be the case after a chat with them. The sum and substance of this was, my mate asked if they were okay with us recording the songs with altered guitar/bass/drum parts as it were to which the answer was of course “no,” however, obviously they wanted to be able to use the stuff in any way they saw fit that was okay. It definitely came across as somewhat hypocritical, but I couldn’t figure out who is actually right or wrong at all. Whilst I don’t think either band will make loads of cash, my friend said it was his intention to put the guitarist on the writing credits as he wrote the riffs per se (even though they have been altered and in places the structures have been altered). I assumed that this was reasonable, but it was totally rebuffed as “robbery.”

Now, I was under the impression that lyrics and melody were about half a song, but what of arrangement? If it’s been changed (slightly or otherwise) what does that do to this situation? Is my friend wrong for thinking that it’s okay to record the stuff even if he gives a writing credit to his ex-guitarist? Is it okay that they use the stuff?

This is really, really messy and for those of you with a bit more of a legal background and/or experience of this kind of nonsense, I’d certainly appreciate your viewpoints.

[Lynottfan]

The answer to this could be rather simple, I will make the assumption that there is no MCPS registration of these songs, therefore there is no mechanical copyright, that which would be required in a court of law for example. If this is the case then bottom line, you and your mate can do what you want, and your old band mates can do what they want, there are no rights to claim that would stand up under scrutiny, you may have to settle this old school and its down the play area after school bell at 4:00pm for fistycuffs!

Edited May 12, 2013 by Lynottfan

[Skol303]

The melodies in question may well 'belong' to your friend - in that he created them - but there's nothing he can do to stop someone else using them without lining the pockets of a lawyer. And that's never worth doing that unless the songs are earning a fortune.

The root of these stories is nearly always personal pride rather than financial loss/reward. If he feels passionately about these melodies, my advice would be to continue using them. Just do it better than the other band.

[spacey]

Nothing has to be "registered" to be copyright and this is just a money making scam by copyright licensing grab firms.
Copyright can only apply to "created" works, something has to exists in a actual form, be it a recording, a transcript in notation or lyrics in written form.
Other wise there is nothing to copyright as no creation exists and you can not copyright "an idea" or something in your mind.
The term is creation and copyright exists at creation.

If he has a recorded version of these songs or some form of notation transcript of the creation he may have a chance.
Other than that the other party can just claim they are inspired by previous songs they have heard other people play , like most songs are these days.

In short, record what you write and get it witnessed, it becomes a creation then, even on your mobile phone.

He wont be the first to have riffs and ideas ripped off or the last.

Edited May 12, 2013 by spacey

[Wolverinebass]

Thanks chaps. I appreciate the replies. You are both quite right there isn't any MCPS registration on this stuff on the other hand I wouldn't put it past the other lot to do this and then play difficult afterwards. However, I wonder about that though. Does that mean that in theory if I were to go and see a random band tonight who weren't signed I could rip off their stuff with impunity because they could prove anything meaningful about it? Obviously, I'm not going to do that!! It's a hypothetical question. That does seem somewhat bonkers. Though I can see the logic.

As for the stuff being part of a personal context, naturally that’s true. It’s not pride though. My friend went through a horrifically bad year or so and the songs deal with some very personal issues to him, so to see them getting messed up is more than a tad annoying to say the least. The fact that his ex-guitarist has an inferiority complex the size of Antartica and delusions of talent which don’t come under the Jaco Pastorious mantra of “it ain’t bragging if you can back it up,” make it all the more tragically comedic really.

Personally I think that we do the songs better than them. It’s just a pity that we haven’t played them live in a new format. Something that I really wanted to do first. They’ve taken something that sounds like A Perfect Circle and turned it into a cookie monster vocals sludgefest. I’m happy to let you hear a before and 2 afters if you’re interested. I have nothing against thrashy metal I hasten to add.

As for the fisticuffs, I wouldn’t want to comment as to how much I’d enjoy that…..

Edited May 12, 2013 by Wolverinebass

[bertbass]

Record it and post it to yourself recorded or registered delivery but don't open it. Instant proof that you wrote it first and when and anyone else playing it nicked it from you.

[lurksalot]

Ive heard it of Berts version aswell , same with lyrics , write them and post them back . it will probably come to nowt anyway.

[4 Strings]

As I understand it, you need to publish a song to get royalties through the PRS. Once published, you have no control over who uses the song, but whenever they do you should be credited and receive payment through the PRS. You should even receive payment if you play it yourself in a PRS licenced venue.

The plan to credit the guitarist is a good one, he will receive any moneys due to him from sales/performances of the song. As you say, this will probably amount to little and so it sounds like he is more objecting to the principle of using 'his' material than worried about lost income. Odd, if I had a riff acknowledged to me in someone else's song I'd be chuffed!

The issue with sampling etc comes to blows when permission and credit is not given (or the copyright somehow excludes this - you won't find any Pink Floyd stuff sampled). It's been an unexpected and fruitful source of income for the original artist when it's done properly.

[Lynottfan]

The whole area of copyright law is vey grey, a member of my family is a lawyer in this area to say things like "Nothing has to be "registered" to be copyright" isn't strictly true for example, it is a total minefield of litigation and rules so I have been told, the classic send it to yourself and don't open it is one of the classic myths, it may help you, but I cant be relied upon like some think, there really is not a definitive answer to this, other than there really is nothing that can be done, masses of money are not involved (always going to get an interested party here no surprise) no or little evidence, so really play the songs, play them better and really make them yours and that will be more than reward.

[Geek99]

It's important to distinguish between copyright and publishing (in the legal sense). If you hear a song being played, and you're influenced, even subconsciously, to create something similar then the other party have a claim potentially, whether its useful or worthwhile pursuing it or not is another matter.

As said above, you need proof of your contribution or your prior art in creating it in the case of just hearing it in a pub

So tab it out, write it down, record it on your phone, then send it to a third party. You don't need a lawyer, just someone reliable, perhaps a parent. Put a statement on it, verbally or written of the date and your name.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1368430954' post='2076842']
It's important to distinguish between copyright and publishing (in the legal sense). If you hear a song being played, and you're influenced, even subconsciously, to create something similar then the other party have a claim potentially, whether its useful or worthwhile pursuing it or not is another matter.

As said above, you need proof of your contribution or your prior art in creating it in the case of just hearing it in a pub

So tab it out, write it down, record it on your phone, then send it to a third party. You don't need a lawyer, just someone reliable, perhaps a parent. Put a statement on it, verbally or written of the date and your name.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that even if you do that, while it might win an argument between parties, if it's unpublished work there's no legal weight to it.

A mate of mine runs this little business, and he knows this sort of stuff, if you drop him a line he'd be glad to provide what, to him, would be a simple answer.

http://doxmedia.co.uk/

[Ziphoblat]

Not talking about this from a legal perspective here because I have no idea when it comes to that, but I've always been of the opinion that any finished tracks a band gets together are theirs to keep. If one member of the band decides to go his own way, I think if everybody works under the assumption that he gets to take his bits with him when he leaves, it can all get a bit petty and futile. Personally I write the bulk of the material for my current band (minus lyrics/vocal melodies, but the songs are always full of instrumental melodies and hooks) and I'd have no quarrels accepting that what that stuff gets used for if I decide to part with them is entirely up to them, as long as I received due credit should it become financially profitable on a considerable scale (which is obviously not going to happen). If I were to start a new project the last thing I'd want to be doing is recycling my old stuff anyway. If you can write one good piece, you can write another.

[Junkyard Rocket]

I'm not a lawyer & I do not play one on TV, but my understanding is that you can't copyright a chord progression. If the lyrics & melody belong to your singer, as long as your band does not use the exact guitar riff as played by the other band I can't see any problem. If your current guitarist can't come up with anything better than the original riff, create one for him - nothing needs to be set in stone.

[BigRedX]

Unless the old band had pre-existing written, signed and witnessed agreements as to who owns what from a songwriting PoV, then if there are any disputes it will come down to who can afford the best lawyers.

Unless one of the bands is making significant money out of the songs it won't really be worth it.

And you don't have to be published to get performance royalties from the PRS. You can (and anyone who performs their own songs live or is getting radio play, should) join the PRS as a writer member. It's fairly easy and AFAIK essentially free. You earn money every time you play your songs at a gig or recordings are broadcast and if you are reasonably prolific it can add up to a substantial sum. My band pretty much paid the recording costs of our forthcoming single from live performance and broadcast royalties of the last one.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1368437741' post='2076934']
And you don't have to be published to get performance royalties from the PRS. You can (and anyone who performs their own songs live or is getting radio play, should) join the PRS as a writer member. It's fairly easy and AFAIK essentially free. You earn money every time you play your songs at a gig or recordings are broadcast and if you are reasonably prolific it can add up to a substantial sum. My band pretty much paid the recording costs of our forthcoming single from live performance and broadcast royalties of the last one.
[/quote]

This - I don't know why everyone who performs original material don't do it.

(Presumably, once the precedent has been set for receiving monies from performing the song it has been legally recognised as your song.)

[Dave Vader]

Surely slapping it on soundcloud or similar now constitutes publishing? Or am I missing something?

[4 Strings]

Probably, this is helpful:

http://www.prsformusic.com/aboutus/FAQs/copyrightfaqs/Pages/default.aspx