What to do with 4 Celestians?

[apa]

So when I was young and it was spring etc I built this monolith. Spec taken from a picture with overall dims of a Marshall 410 in about 1992. So it doesnt really resemble what they are supposed to be. I ported it because ..... well thats what you do isnt it! The nice young Jimmy Page lookalike from Dawsons in Chester managed to get me the proper Celestian BG10T-150 speakers. This thing weighs a bloody ton having been made from 18mm MBD. Now in my more enlightened state Im thinking of reusing them in a more up to date design. Im thinking of a 410 Isobaric design ala Orange or some such more compact and lightweight design. Problem is I cant find any plans for one. Anything that Fearful have is based on specific speakers and they dont make a 10" unit. Also what power rating will these babys be? Assuming I use all 4. Do I get 150watts all in or 4x150watts = 600watts ?? Nothing wrong at all with the spreaker themselves. They've had very lite use

Anyone know of any selfbuilds for these? Or should I just sell them on and start from scratch?

[URL=http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/apasher/media/DSCN0438.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q491/apasher/DSCN0438.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/apasher/media/DSCN0437.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q491/apasher/DSCN0437.jpg[/IMG][/URL]



Cheers in advance

A

[Lozz196]

Each will take 150 watts, so in theory you could push 600 watts into a cab that has all four in. I say in theory, as 600 actual watts would probably destroy all buildings around, so in reality, whatever cab you put together will be very powerful.

Saying all of this though, you may well be able to sell them on, and put the money raised towards a new more suitable cab, cones like these generally raise £40 - £50 each.

[Mr. Foxen]

Isobaric is a bad plan, they don't have much excursion as it is, and isobaric mounting will halve that which is available to move air. Fire up WinISD and figure a couple of 2x10s you can stack vertical.

Edit: googling the speaker got me back to myself, asking for one of these for my Ashdown ABM8x10. So probably happiest in a sealed cab, but bigger than the compartments in the 8x10.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[apa]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1368481415' post='2077684']
Each will take 150 watts, so in theory you could push 600 watts into a cab that has all four in. I say in theory, as 600 actual watts would probably destroy all buildings around, so in reality, whatever cab you put together will be very powerful.

Saying all of this though, you may well be able to sell them on, and put the money raised towards a new more suitable cab, cones like these generally raise £40 - £50 each.
[/quote]

This probably would be the best solution. Although they are pretty good speakers. A shame to get rid of them. Oh hold on what did you say!! £40 - £50. Hmmm interesting thanks

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368481932' post='2077688']
Isobaric is a bad plan, they don't have much excursion as it is, and isobaric mounting will halve that which is available to move air. Fire up WinISD and figure a couple of 2x10s you can stack vertical.

Edit: googling the speaker got me back to myself, asking for one of these for my Ashdown ABM8x10. So probably happiest in a sealed cab, but bigger than the compartments in the 8x10.
[/quote]

Isobaric is a bad plan as far as these speakers go because of the travel? Just downloaded WinlSD cheers Ill have a play. (Although they dont have these speakers in thier list

A vertical 210 would be the next obvious choice yep.

cheers

A

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1368483502' post='2077719']
Isobaric is a bad plan as far as these speakers go because of the travel? Just downloaded WinlSD cheers Ill have a play. (Although they dont have these speakers in thier list
[/quote]

Isobaric is just a bad plan ever since speakers stopped needing to be in a car sized box to work properly. Only advantage is you can sell someone with space for a 1x12 two speakers instead of one, and then sell them another when they find the 1x12 max volume isn't enough, and I guess you aren't that much of a shyster

[apa]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368483737' post='2077724']
Isobaric is just a bad plan ever since speakers stopped needing to be in a car sized box to work properly. Only advantage is you can sell someone with space for a 1x12 two speakers instead of one, and then sell them another when they find the 1x12 max volume isn't enough, and I guess you aren't that much of a shyster
[/quote]

Gotcha

And the only thing you can do with four 10" speakers is put them all in one big box.

A

[Mr. Foxen]

Two boxes. Pair of 2x10s is best.

[3below]

Could always build an 'angled' 4 x 10 - look at BFM crossfire design for inspiration. Would give better horizontal dispersion.

[apa]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368484204' post='2077728']
Two boxes. Pair of 2x10s is best.
[/quote]
Id rather have one box. Suppose I could use two of the speakers and flog the other two. Hmmm

[charic]

Nah, 4 boxes! All different colours!

[Balcro]

If you want to keep them I agree with Mr. Foxen. Two 2x12's.

Give Celestion a call or e-mail and ask if they've any tech data.
According to the subaudio web-site they were available in 8 or 16 Ohms. However the "Marshall" edition may be subtly different.
Fundamental resonance was very high at 72Hz, so loads of low-mids but short on very low bass.

Just sticking them in a box and drilling a few holes means they're less than optimised now. Without more tech data, anything newly built will be the same.

Balcro

[Phil Starr]

All the advice is good. Isobarics are a gimmick for bass, you could probably take the second speaker out without too much of a change. Why carry around two speakers that only have the output of one?

2x10's have the advantage of only needing one for most gigs, but with the option of taking two if you need a bit of extra output. The advantage over your current cab is that you can vertically align your speakers and it will improve the dispersal of your speakers and give you better mids and tops. It'd be my tip too. A vertical 4x10 would work as well but is a bit of an awkward shape.

I wouldn't go for complex woodwork for these speakers, they don't look good enough to merit it.

If you like the sound you have you could always just rebuild the cab in lighter materials. You could build a sealed cab which will give you a different bass response or if you can find the speakers T/S parameters from Celestion you could design a proper reflex cab for them, correctly tuned however i know Celestion won't release the specs of Marshall speakers for contractual reasons, I asked. if resonance is 72Hz then you could just tune your cab to that and it'll work.

You don't really have a lot of sensible options, these speakers are OK, but only OK.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1368474896' post='2077573']
Or should I just sell them on and start from scratch?
[/quote]That. Unless you can get complete specs on them any cabinet build is a shot in the dark.
[quote]Fundamental resonance was very high at 72Hz, so loads of low-mids but short on very low bass.[/quote]If that's the case they're really not well suited for electric bass.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1368521756' post='2077881']
Id rather have one box. Suppose I could use two of the speakers and flog the other two. Hmmm
[/quote]

Put flightcase latches on so you can lock them together, then you can enjoy all the pain in the nuts of one big heavy cab at will, and still divvy up in suitable moments.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1368532412' post='2078031']
If that's the case they're really not well suited for electric bass.
[/quote]

I've used a cab loaded with them, not much going on very high or low, but enough in the middle bit to work fine as a cab. Fairly sure they benefit from bigger enclosures than a small 8x10.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368536916' post='2078126']
I've used a cab loaded with them, not much going on very high or low, but enough in the middle bit to work fine as a cab.
[/quote]In other words, vintage tone. The thing about 'vintage tone' is that those of us who played in the 60s were never thrilled about it, not being able to stray below 'A' at a decent volume without farting out. The E string might as well have not been there for all the use you could get out of it. Given the penchant for guitar players to write songs in the key of E back then it led to very thin bass parts.

[Mr. Foxen]

I used it with a low A. Fairly sure they have a bit more handling than 60s speakers, even if the tone is trad. Lots of drive going on to get lots of thickness from that middle bit. Plus can let the subs do the work and not mess with them with loads of sub onstage, which I have been assuming is why the 8x10 is a standard big stage accessory.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368537903' post='2078146']
which I have been assuming is why the 8x10 is a standard big stage accessory.
[/quote]The 810, specifically the SVT, is the standard big stage box because they're simply loud enough to please virtually anyone. Rental companies don't want to have to stock a dozen brands, and almost no one complains about running through an SVT.

[LawrenceH]

Celestion have supplied specs for older speakers when I've contacted them in the past. Block up the ports, see what it sounds like, if it's ok then it's a fair bet in a sealed cab. If it sounds horrible then these are not the drivers for you!
You can build from 12mm ply with lots of bracing to stiffen panels and it'll be a lot lighter, especially if you use poplar/birch-faced poplar/pine or basically anything but solid baltic birch.

The 2x 2x10 cabs really is a better idea though, if you like the sound from the 4x10 then keep the internal dimensions about the same - it'll sound the same and it won't take up hardly any extra space.

[Phil Starr]

Hi Lawrence, Celestion told me on the phone that they don't release the details of the speakers they make for Marshall. there's a Marshall logo on the back of these

[Mr. Foxen]

Don't mention the marshall, BG10T-150 is enough, since those were OEM in my Ashdown too.

[apa]

Exellent stuff - thanks guys.

Just to cover a few points raised above:

1. I built the cab based on what I say in a brochure so the sound isnt going to be right.
2. I agree since these are the proper Marshall speakers Im not going to get the proper spec and hence any design isnt going to be perfect. Assuming there is a difference!!
3. Im looking at one cab ideally.
4. Making two 2x12" is a bit difficult with 4x10" speakers
5. Isobatic out the window
6. 4 single boxes - hmm interesting few through a random signal splitter? (do they exist? )
7. The sound is a bit mid and low. Not my cup of tea any more. Yes a rather vintage sound. These are probably best suited to be used in a combination set up.
8. So these are only 'alright' speakers? And I guess times have moved on since the mid 90's!
9. Memory is hazy but I do seem to recall a tweeter in the real thing! Infact Im right. Its also ported. Its based on a 7410 although they are rated at 800w. Im pretty sure the one I copied was the same but one model down and didnt have the gold stips. Heres a pic of the 7410



Im urring on selling them to fund a better set up. There is nothing so far to suggest otherwise.

A

[LawrenceH]

The upper end of the response really won't change much putting the speakers in a different box, assuming you are listening on-axis. If the bottom end is overpowering at one point in the frequency range, then changing the box could help and potentially re-balance the low end against the mids/treble, but it's not going to magically make them sound bright and modern.
The reason for the 2 boxes is that a 4x10 in a square really does have issues that will manifest in the mids/treble as very uneven sound. It might be worth checking if you like the sound of these drivers better when you're facing them directly, in which case stacking them vertically would bring you more on-axis. Otherwise, if you've got the power available you can probably get close to the same overall volume from 2 high-end 10" PA drivers. If not you can get the same volume or even exceed it with the right pair of 12s.

Edited May 15, 2013 by LawrenceH

[apa]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1368631427' post='2079492']
The upper end of the response really won't change much putting the speakers in a different box, assuming you are listening on-axis. If the bottom end is overpowering at one point in the frequency range, then changing the box could help and potentially re-balance the low end against the mids/treble, but it's not going to magically make them sound bright and modern.
The reason for the 2 boxes is that a 4x10 in a square really does have issues that will manifest in the mids/treble as very uneven sound. It might be worth checking if you like the sound of these drivers better when you're facing them directly, in which case stacking them vertically would bring you more on-axis. Otherwise, if you've got the power available you can probably get close to the same overall volume from 2 high-end 10" PA drivers. If not you can get the same volume or even exceed it with the right pair of 12s.
[/quote]
Get where your coming from. I think Ill splash out on a new cab then sell these speakers without the cab and use that as ..... well bin it!!