Do you have your own personaity on the bass.?

[bubinga5]

i was watching a friend of mine playing a cover of Donald Fagans Night Fly. and while i digged his playing , i couldnt help but think that he was just going over the motions of this bass line.. its so important to me to have your own personality, its such a subtle thing, but its so important.. i hate knocking anyones playing, but i said to him, hey you should loosen up and stop playing the bass line exactly like the original. im not saying you should change any notes, its more in the accents, and feel of the bass line.

does anyone feel this way.?

[SpaceChick]

I suppose it depends on a few factors..... How long has your friend been playing.... Does he have the skills to have a "voice"...... Does he have the confidence to make something his own..... Or does he want to be true to the original.

I suppose it's the difference between competence and expression.

If I look at the gig I did Friday night.... I played my basslines well and accurately but I have not yet developed my own expression. The bassist in the band after me who has 30 years experience was very much making basslines his own and was a joy to watch (and I learned a lot from watching him).

If your friend is competant and is enjoying what he is doing, I don't think it's fair to be too critical of him just because you feel he lacks a creative flare. Let's face it 99% of punters don't notice what is going on down the low end as long as things are pounding along nicely!

[Telebass]

^^^
Perzakly.

[charic]

I can do either, the "exactly as it should be" (formed by playing along to midi tracks with click on and drums off, harder than it sounds ) or with my own feel which involves locking in with those damned bangy things called "drums" both have their place though

[JTUK]

Very very very common thing.. I find.

People spend so much time cloning a line that they forget the jizz..
but then those same people aren't likely to have it anyway...

[xilddx]

It takes a long time to develop a real personality on an instrument, if indeed that's what the player wants to do. It's by no means a prerequisite. But I'd agree with a lot of what B5 has said. There are loads of people at all skill levels who don't seem to have much expression in their playing. Lines are uniformly played with no nuance or passion.

I had an interesting epiphany at the weekend. Kit Richardson was asked to play a friend's wedding. Our drummer had to go to hospital for an emergency operation which we found out the morning of the gig and we could not pull out. We managed to coerce the guitarist's rather frightened drummer from another band (who has never played the songs and is not really capable of the techniques required) into giving it a shot. So we spent an hour in a tiny room in a church hall teaching him the songs by having the band sing all the parts to him, I was singing my bass lines with the rest of the band. Me and the guitarist conducted him through the arrangements on stage. He even managed a song he hadn't rehearsed by us beatboxing the basic drum pattern to him a few seconds before and conducting the arrangement to him during the song. He did a cracking job too even though he didn't have the technical complexity needed. He was on cloud nine about it cos he was shitting himself before he went on.

My epihpany was that as I was singing my bass lines with the band to teach him the songs, I was adding all sorts of (slightly humourous and exaggerated) emphasis to the dynamics of the lines. I realised that I actually do have some personality on the insrument and the way I approach playing it and composing for it, I am replicating the dynamics in my mind and using various techniques, effects and volume pedal to achieve what my imagination is telling me the song needs while reflecting my deep feelings about how I want the dynamics to sound. It was actually like being a child again, singing to myself in an uninhibited way, just really enjoying it. I've learned loads from that, and I am going to sing out loud as much as possible while I'm playing at home. I reckon it will teach me a lot more about my fingerboard too, and develop a much closer relationship between my mind and fingers.

Edited May 14, 2013 by xilddx

[charic]

^ I saw something recently from a band called "neonfly" who performed really well at a gig I went too. There was a behind the scenes type thing on the whole tour and it showed them writing a new song.

They were just all sat singing at each other. They were clearly having a great time and honestly you could tell it had legs as a song. Very interesting method.

[icastle]

With 30+ years of playing I can accurately 'clone' what someone else has done, but often find it somewhat frustrating as I have to battle against changing the bass line to put my 'stamp' on it.

Most of the time people are just happy for me to play like me.

[JTUK]

This thread is along the lines of a show on Sky arts recently.
The very popular band are an example of playing by numbers and being totally devoid of any musicality in their playing...as far as I can see..
They play the notes but where is the music..??

If you are going to [put a band together, the guys can be as boring as hell... but they need musicality.
Maybe this is another thread..

[Left Foot]

Jack White said something cool on a radio interview about how he found his voice performing his own songs. To paraphrase, he basically said that he has to view live perfomance as sounding something different from what he originally intended even if he is following his own formula, this followed from some conversation about the idea that artists cannot achieve the grandness of their original creative thought. It was this element of trying to achieve something that he alone envisioned in his head that gave him his connection to the song and 'voice' during a performance. Always relating to his own take on things.

Thats how I feel to an extent. I basically can not find a voice performing others music. Most music I would want to cover is soo good that I dont think I can add anything to it, theres no connection because the sound is already amazing. Even the imperfections are treasured so I dont feel like I have anything else to add to it, how can I reinterprit my own inspiration?

Edited May 14, 2013 by Left Foot

[xilddx]

[quote name='Left Foot' timestamp='1368533860' post='2078059']
Ive never played others music live for that exact reason, Im not good at being artisan and replicating something out of a formula unless given the free range to manipulate it into something very different. Covers have never really come into the bands consideration either really.

Jack White said something cool on a radio interview about how he found his voice performing his own songs. To paraphrase, he basically said that he has to view live perfomance as sounding something different from what he originally intended even if he is following his own formula, this followed from some conversation about the idea that artists cannot achieve the grandness of their original creative thought. It was this element of trying to achieve something that he alone envisioned in his head that gave him his connection to the song and 'voice' during a performance. Always relating to his own take on things.

I basically can not find a voice performing others music as most music I would want to cover is soo good that I dont think I can add anything to it, theres no connection because the sound is already amazing. Even the imperfections are treasured so I dont feel like I have anything else to add to it.
[/quote]

We did a couple of requested covers at the wedding I mentioned above, and they had to be close to the original, Glory Box by Portishead and Feeling Good (Muse version). They were reasonably fun to do, but compared to the other covers we do which are really f***ed up versions and very different to the originals, there was no joy in playing them at all.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='SpaceChick' timestamp='1368504734' post='2077786']
I suppose it depends on a few factors..... How long has your friend been playing.... Does he have the skills to have a "voice"...... Does he have the confidence to make something his own..... Or does he want to be true to the original.

I suppose it's the difference between competence and expression.

If I look at the gig I did Friday night.... I played my basslines well and accurately but I have not yet developed my own expression. The bassist in the band after me who has 30 years experience was very much making basslines his own and was a joy to watch (and I learned a lot from watching him).

If your friend is competant and is enjoying what he is doing, I don't think it's fair to be too critical of him just because you feel he lacks a creative flare. Let's face it 99% of punters don't notice what is going on down the low end as long as things are pounding along nicely!
[/quote]hes very competent, and i probably sound like a bit of a knob, critisising someone playing but it was constructive critisism. im not saying im the best player in the world but i recognise the detail, and for me the details when you put them all together, make good music and they make it your own. i guess it comes down to knowing your instrument fully, and then putting some personality into it.

Edited May 14, 2013 by bubinga5

[Left Foot]

Playing covers is a process on its own merit really. Theres more to think about than just the 'connection' and passion of the song (which for most musicians is vital), you're really taking part in the social cohesion and entertainment of an event and fitting a purpose. Maybe theres no room for 'passion' and its impurities when you have to consider that aspect, just keep the guy who pays the bill happy. It obviously looks and sounds better when people playing are into it, so I like hearing bands deviate from the script with adlib, although guy who pays the bill might not want that. Infact theres bands out there who have got a reputation for sounding nothing like the original they cover, almost in an anti-cover fashion. Its a bit of a gimmick but bands like PanzerBallet have taken the 'artisan' nature of covers and messed with the composition soo much its fun to hear how they recreate songs.

Theres plenty of bands out there who to my ears, dont play with passion whilst playing originals. I think thats when we start to criticise other things like ego, technique and talent.

Like I said, cover artists get it hard from muso's but can't really win. They're forfilling a function that limits their creative input when delivered to the non muso crowd.


[url="http://basschat.co.uk/user/3459-xilddx/"][color="#282828"]xilddx[/color][/url] - The post about singing the song is really interesting, good call, deffinitely a cool method for getting a 'liberated' interpritation whilst keeping the familiarity in the song. I have noticed that if you get a group of people humming famous rifts/melodies, they almost always go for overtones or quirks. I think this is because of the emphasis in original composition.

[garry71]

I'll learn the notes for a cover song, but play them with my own "feel". I've just learnt I Want You Back by the Jackson 5. The original bass part is fairly stacatto, but I play it with a bit more "flow" between the notes. As long as what you're doing suits the song, I don't think it matters if your own personality comes through.

If it's for a tribute band though, I think it'd have to be spot on to the original as much as possible.

[bubinga5]

maybe a good example is this. im aware that these are some very advanced bass players, but my example is extreme to highlight my point. Bernard Edwards plays Good Times, by Chic on a Stingray, then Marcus Miller plays the same song on a Stingray.. it would sound totally different .thats personality for me as im sure it is to most of us. there is nothing wrong with playing that great bassline to the letter, but to have some unique slant on it, is great

[Dad3353]

[quote]Do you have your own personaity on the bass.?[/quote]

What...? Good gracious, yes..! My lines, or my interpretation of 'covers' lines are easily recognisable as being mine..! Guitar, also, and, of course, drums. The problem..? None, really, except that very few folks (well, none to be honest...) appreciate this..! I can get by on drums, and hide quite a bit of my 'persona', but it's more difficult on bass, and impossible on guitar. This explains, of course, why no-one has ever paid me to play guitar, not often the bass, and not enough as a drummer..! Overly modest..? Perhaps, but you'd best hear me first before definitively deciding.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1368496005' post='2077780']
.. its so important to me to have your own personality, its such a subtle thing, but its so important..

does anyone feel this way.?
[/quote]
No, I never feel that way.

I never think at all about my own personality. I think about the song and the band and what I can manage to do that will work most effectively.

[xilddx]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368550397' post='2078427']
No, I never feel that way.

I never think at all about my own personality. I think about the song and the band and what I can manage to do that will work most effectively.
[/quote]

Surely your personality influences your decisions about your composition, no?

[Dr.Dave]

I think copying someone elses playing is fine. It's a good way to learn skills , and we all have a time for learning skills. Youcan;t break a rule if you don't know it first.

As musicians though , if we can also learn to roll our own we become better musicians.

[Grangur]

[quote name='SpaceChick' timestamp='1368504734' post='2077786']
I suppose it depends on a few factors.....
[/quote]

Don't forget some folk (even bass players) can be "analytical" types. They play the original line exactly; anything else could, in their opinion, be "wrong".

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1368550548' post='2078430']
Surely your personality influences your decisions about your composition, no?
[/quote]
I don't really understand what is meant by 'personality' in this context - however, if all it means is that I will make decisions about what to play then, of course, that will be true, but so what? The decision I make might even be to do what someone else did already and then that will still be 'personality' influencing my decisions. It's meaningless.

I really do not feel it's important to me to have my own 'personality'.

[xilddx]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368551083' post='2078447']
I don't really understand what is meant by 'personality' in this context - however, if all it means is that I will make decisions about what to play then, of course, that will be true, but so what? The decision I make might even be to do what someone else did already and then that will still be 'personality' influencing my decisions. It's meaningless.

I really do not feel it's important to me to have my own 'personality'.
[/quote]

It admittedly is a nebulous expression, and I imagine it means a recognisable style of playing and composing. I suppose you would have to exaggerate what you do for it to be noticeable to most people. Most non-musicians wouldn't recognise the instrument let alone a style of playing. But I think it's important to develop your musical personality, otherwise what the f*** are you going to say through music? Whether it's noticeable or not, if you are not connecting your musical instincts to the music you make, the listener may well feel the music is dead. I'd agree it's not that important to many bassists, but imagine if a singer had no personality coming across in their voice? Or indeed anyone? Would you want to hear someone with little personality talking to you? Probably not, what could you connect with to keep your attention and interest?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1368552020' post='2078465']
It admittedly is a nebulous expression, and I imagine it means a recognisable style of playing and composing. I suppose you would have to exaggerate what you do for it to be noticeable to most people. Most non-musicians wouldn't recognise the instrument let alone a style of playing. But I think it's important to develop your musical personality, otherwise what the f*** are you going to say through music? Whether it's noticeable or not, if you are not connecting your musical instincts to the music you make, the listener may well feel the music is dead. I'd agree it's not that important to many bassists, but imagine if a singer had no personality coming across in their voice? Or indeed anyone? Would you want to hear someone with little personality talking to you? Probably not, what could you connect with to keep your attention and interest?
[/quote]
Nige, I do understand, in some sense anyway, the point being made but at the same time I just don't get it because I'm never thinking in terms of 'what the f*** am I going to say through music?'. If I thought the distinction between art and entertainment was a real distinction then I'd be on the entertainment side. I never think in terms of expressing myself or expressing my personality (whatever that is). I do think about whether the music is working harmonically and rhythmically and I do think about whether the audience is dancing.

And if someone is talking to me then I sincerely hope I'd be more interested in the content of what they have to say than merely in their personality.

[xilddx]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368553744' post='2078506']
Nige, I do understand, in some sense anyway, the point being made but at the same time I just don't get it because I'm never thinking in terms of 'what the f*** am I going to say through music?'. If I thought the distinction between art and entertainment was a real distinction then I'd be on the entertainment side. I never think in terms of expressing myself or expressing my personality (whatever that is). I do think about whether the music is working harmonically and rhythmically and I do think about whether the audience is dancing.

And if someone is talking to me then I sincerely hope I'd be more interested in the content of what they have to say than merely in their personality.
[/quote]

You're probably doing it anyway mate. I don't get out of bed thinking "How shall I express myself today?" I just do it, sometimes I f*** it up, but it's definitely me Same with my composing and playing. I don't really think about it, I just have musical instincts I'm compelled to express. Hence my earlier post saying I'm only just realising I DO approach bass a bit differently to a lot of other bassists I've heard. f*** knows if anyone would know that by hearing me play, but I do think I have developed an aesthetic and it's come about through exposure to a lot of music and deciding what I like and don't like in terms of dynamics and nuances and how I use space, accent, polyrhythm, etc.

I grew up on prog rock, Zappa, dub and reggae, opera, pop, etc. I LOVED it all, apart from opera, and all that musical excitement rattles my particles in a particular way. I hate most Jazz but interesting walking bass lines can get me all wet, so I incorporate elements of that in my playing and composing too, although it's a little f***ed up. I love loads of instruments and tiny things Copeland might do on a hi-hat can make me go insane with excitement. So I suppose from all that exposure, synthesis, and spewing out the results in my own music, and bass and guitar stuff I write for other people, emerges some sort of style. I generally know what sort of rhythmic, melodic, harmonic, and spatial climates get me excited, and what doesn't. I only ever incorporate what I like into my own music. The journey is learning that musical language and using it, which is where I am woefully inadequate, if I'd been schooled I'd have a lot more output of much higher quality.

[Japhet]

My approach has always been to not listen much to a new song (cover), and then play what I feel like playing. I then listen to the original and sometimes prefer what I've come up with, or bits of it. Of course, this doesn't work with a song you know really well already but it keeps things interesting. Many years ago I was playing in a covers band and the guitarist said to me "the bass line doesn't go like that". I replied " It f****ing well does when I'm playing it".