Piezo pickups - Is there much difference?

[MiltyG565]

I've been reading up on piezo pickups, and looking at prices, you can get a lot of these things for a few quid, but then go to a well respected company like Fishman, and the prices shoot up, and my query is, is there really any difference? Are the cheap ones really that much worse than the expensive ones? Is there as much variance between piezo pickups as there is for electro-magnetic pickups? Obviously, if I'm going to buy one, I want to get the best one for my money, but if there are "all pretty much the same" then i might as well just get whatever. So what say you, wisdomical BassChatters?

[Mr. Foxen]

The cost is in the buffering, generally, you can get a transducer mounted in various ways, but the complicated part is the preamp/buffer. A cheap transducer in suitable form and a nice preamp seems to be the way to go. I've fitted a cheap piezo bridge to a guitar, to go to a nice preamp, and its main guitar for a fairly big/award winning folk guy. There is much less going on internally with piezos, and the aim isn't generally colour, so variation is much less than magnetic pickups where people expect a tone from them.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368621742' post='2079277']
The cost is in the buffering, generally, you can get a transducer mounted in various ways, but the complicated part is the preamp/buffer. A cheap transducer in suitable form and a nice preamp seems to be the way to go. I've fitted a cheap piezo bridge to a guitar, to go to a nice preamp, and its main guitar for a fairly big/award winning folk guy. There is much less going on internally with piezos, and the aim isn't generally colour, so variation is much less than magnetic pickups where people expect a tone from them.
[/quote]

Thanks! That's what I thought. So getting a cheap one isn't like getting a £10 E/Mag pickup.

I'm trying to piece this all together in my head for a project that I expect to do sometime in the future. I was wondering if you are able to make custom preamps, given your amp knowledge?

[Mr. Foxen]

I use a sansamp paradriver,, never got into making small stuff really. Tap up BCer Nick, or possibly Umph, who are my go to people if I need custom things made. Or https://www.facebook.com/pages/Doppelg%C3%A4nger-Effects/210523849037516?ref=ts&fref=ts

Basically, if you don't need tone shaping a Super Hard on style buffer is all you need. Very simple.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368623219' post='2079325']
I use a sansamp paradriver,, never got into making small stuff really. Tap up BCer Nick, or possibly Umph, who are my go to people if I need custom things made. Or [url="https://www.facebook.com/pages/Doppelg%C3%A4nger-Effects/210523849037516?ref=ts&fref=ts"]https://www.facebook...?ref=ts&fref=ts[/url]

Basically, if you don't need tone shaping a Super Hard on style buffer is all you need. Very simple.
[/quote]

Cheers, but I'm going to be coupling the piezo with a couple of other pickups, and I would like to mount it all up to an ACG style preamp, which is why I'm looking a custom one made.

[Mr. Foxen]

How many inputs does the ACG have? You can insert the buffer between, but the mix with the other pickups might be fun. The SHO type buffer draws very little current, so won't mind running from same battery.

[Gareth Hughes]

I don't know if all piezo's are created equally, regardless of cost - but I do have a cheap-ish one at $40 or so, and whilst it sounds great for plucking, it produces hardly any signal at all for bowing. So in this instance I can't use that pickup when I know I'll be doing some bowing sadly. I've gotten great results from the K&K stuff found at www.gollihurmusic.com

[MiltyG565]

I'm not well versed on preamps or any of that technical wizardry. Basically, What I need is 3 inputs to the preamp, and 3 switches (To control each pickup configuration), and then 3 volume controls on the preamp, with the standard tone/EQ controls.


[quote name='Gareth Hughes' timestamp='1368624209' post='2079345']
I don't know if all piezo's are created equally, regardless of cost - but I do have a cheap-ish one at $40 or so, and whilst it sounds great for plucking, it produces hardly any signal at all for bowing. So in this instance I can't use that pickup when I know I'll be doing some bowing sadly. I've gotten great results from the K&K stuff found at www.gollihurmusic.com
[/quote]

I'm going to use it on a solid-bodied bass

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' timestamp='1368624209' post='2079345']
I don't know if all piezo's are created equally, regardless of cost - but I do have a cheap-ish one at $40 or so, and whilst it sounds great for plucking, it produces hardly any signal at all for bowing. So in this instance I can't use that pickup when I know I'll be doing some bowing sadly. I've gotten great results from the K&K stuff found at www.gollihurmusic.com
[/quote]

What buffer/preamp are you using? Piezos into low impedance sound dreadful with bowing, nasty scratchyness.

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1368624428' post='2079350']
I'm not well versed on preamps or any of that technical wizardry. Basically, What I need is 3 inputs to the preamp, and 3 switches (To control each pickup configuration), and then 3 volume controls on the preamp, with the standard tone/EQ controls.

I'm going to use it on a solid-bodied bass
[/quote]

Are you using an ACG preamp? Those are fairly complicated devices, not an easy clone job, plus cloning would be rude. Super hard on is a clone of a analogue desk input, so not really its own thing, but the ACG is a design. Filter based preamps in similar style cab be done, but fiddly.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368625600' post='2079367']
Are you using an ACG preamp? Those are fairly complicated devices, not an easy clone job, plus cloning would be rude. Super hard on is a clone of a analogue desk input, so not really its own thing, but the ACG is a design. Filter based preamps in similar style cab be done, but fiddly.
[/quote]

I was thinking of using the ACG. I heard it was a quality preamp. I don't mind the exact specs, so long as it can do what i want and sounds good. I think the "filter based" is the key to the ACG preamp, isn't it? Is a Wal bass preamp filter based?

[Mr. Foxen]

Wal one is filter based. Its more the blend options that might be an issue. I imagine most bass preamps only consider two pickups. If its just tone controls oyu need from it, need to go Pickups>buffer/mixer/switch>preamp with tone control>output.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368626321' post='2079387']
Wal one is filter based. Its more the blend options that might be an issue. I imagine most bass preamps only consider two pickups. If its just tone controls oyu need from it, need to go Pickups>buffer/mixer/switch>preamp with tone control>output.
[/quote]

Well, I was thinking more of a switch for each pickup - 1 for the jazz pickups, which would go something like Neck>off>both>bridge. Then just a simplle on/off for the others, then have a volume control for each switch, so you can just blend it using the volume knobs, then some EQ stacked on top of the volume knobs, but I haven't exactly worked that out yet.

[Gareth Hughes]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368625600' post='2079367']
What buffer/preamp are you using? Piezos into low impedance sound dreadful with bowing, nasty scratchyness.
[/quote]

Used either a Fishman Dual Parametric Di with a 10Mohm input or a Boss TU2 tuner pedal, GK MB500 head or Genz Benz Streamliner head, all with a 1Mohm input and always the same result. Just a peculiar thing, considering the pickup (forgotten the name) is similar in design to an Underwood, Schatten, K&K - wing style pickup.

[Mr. Foxen]

Does the pickup have its own preamp/buffer? Found the difference between using a standard input and a high impedance one pretty vast. The octobass recording linked in sig was paradriver with 4.7meg,

[MiltyG565]

What's the buffer? What's it's function, and are they usually part of a preamp?

[Mr. Foxen]

Buffer is the thing that provides a high impedance required by the piezo. The circuit affecting the pickup ends there, but the signal output carries on. Means if you preamp is low impedance, suitable for standard pickups, it won't cause issue with the piezo. Generally magnetic pickups sound good with a high impedance too, hence existence of super hard on, but they don't sound really bad without. Preamps tend to act as a buffer.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368667675' post='2080063']
Buffer is the thing that provides a high impedance required by the piezo. The circuit affecting the pickup ends there, but the signal output carries on. Means if you preamp is low impedance, suitable for standard pickups, it won't cause issue with the piezo. Generally magnetic pickups sound good with a high impedance too, hence existence of super hard on, but they don't sound really bad without. Preamps tend to act as a buffer.
[/quote]

So buffers and preamps aren't mutually exclusive, but not necessarily needed to work together either? Unless you want to run a piezo into a preamp.

[Mr. Foxen]

Yeah, and if the preamp has a really high impedance on its own, its not needed either.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368703184' post='2080320']
Yeah, and if the preamp has a really high impedance on its own, its not needed either.
[/quote]

That's cool. I'll not get in to impedance, I think that's a bit beyond me All I know is, 500k pots instead of 250k pots makes for a brighter sound

[iiipopes]

A buffer is an electronic circuit to match or transform input and output impedances. In this case, it takes the very high impedance of the piezo and transforms it into a lower impedance signal for either an onboard preamp or into the amplifier head itself. For example: [url="http://www.cafewalter.com/cafewalter/fetpre/pzp1_project.htm"]http://www.cafewalte...zp1_project.htm[/url] . What we think of as an onboard preamp, with volume and tonal control, can include the buffer circuit or not, depending on the pickup involved. For example: [url="http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/83696-bass-guitar-preamp.html"]http://www.diyaudio....tar-preamp.html[/url] .

Edited May 16, 2013 by iiipopes

[scojack]

Check with Alan im sure he has done combined piezo and mag pups in the past.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='scojack' timestamp='1368713378' post='2080541']
Check with Alan im sure he has done combined piezo and mag pups in the past.
[/quote]

Who's Alan?

[scojack]

Sorry i thought you were actually buying an ACG pre-amp and not an 'ACG like' preamp.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='scojack' timestamp='1368714809' post='2080580']
Sorry i thought you were actually buying an ACG pre-amp and not an 'ACG like' preamp.
[/quote]

I might, if the makers of them want to do me a special one...

[Dave Vader]

PM Skelf, he's a member on here.