More Power....

[aende]

Hi All,

I have a few 'big' gigs coming up and I feel that I *may* need a bit more power.

I would like to keep my cabs, but I am prepared to switch out the speakers.

So, Amplifier:

Ashdown Superfly 500w - 2 x 250 @ 4 ohms.

2 x 210 cabs @ 4 ohms each - one cab is 300w and the other is 500w.

So, I could buy an Ashdown Superfly 1000w and update the speakers to Eminence Delta's which would give me 750W 210 cabs @ 4ohm.

I am happy to update the speaker to Deltas, however, will 210 cabs handle ~500w each?

What Head options do I have - Was looking at a Genz Benz 12.2

Any ideas on portable high power heads?

[Phil Starr]

The difference between 1000W and 500W is only 3dB, noticeable, but not by much. Changing speakers can cause problems as they have to match the box and more expensive speakers are not necessarily louder. One of the problems with mis matching speakers and box is that it may mean the speakers won't handle their rated power. Deltas have a limited Xmax excursion rating so this might be a problem. Without knowing the dimensions of your 2x10 and what drivers are in it this is all speculation, but you may be about to embark on a plan which won't deliver what you need.

If they are big gigs then you ought to be thinking in terms of PA support anyway. with 500W into 4 10" speakers you should be louder than your drummer and he will have to go through the PA, so why would you choose not to?

If you generally need more volume then changing cabs will potentially give you a lot more than an extra 3dB but simply swapping drive units might not be the best option.

[aende]

Hi Phil,

I am using Eminence Beta's in one cab (500w total) and Eminence Alpha's in the other cab (300w total). The cabs are old Peavey TX's that have been refurbished.

I am thinking that the Delta's may give me more flexibility and I can make the cabs 8ohm instead of 4 ohm and use a wider range of amplifier......

Thoughts?

[tonyquipment]

DI it and just use the backline as monitor

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1368779745' post='2081307']
The difference between 1000W and 500W is only 3dB, noticeable, but not by much. Changing speakers can cause problems as they have to match the box and more expensive speakers are not necessarily louder. One of the problems with mis matching speakers and box is that it may mean the speakers won't handle their rated power. Deltas have a limited Xmax excursion rating so this might be a problem. Without knowing the dimensions of your 2x10 and what drivers are in it this is all speculation, but you may be about to embark on a plan which won't deliver what you need.

If they are big gigs then you ought to be thinking in terms of PA support anyway. with 500W into 4 10" speakers you should be louder than your drummer and he will have to go through the PA, so why would you choose not to?

If you generally need more volume then changing cabs will potentially give you a lot more than an extra 3dB but simply swapping drive units might not be the best option.
[/quote]

In my limited knowledge 3db is the same as doubling the volume and to do that with power alone you'd need 10x the amount of power, 5000watts.

I think you are right though changing heads is pointless, as all you succeed in doing is giving yourself more headroom.

The problem with the superfly is that its a small amount of watts at 4ohms.
You'd be better off buying 4 lots of 1x12 that are 8ohm each, or 4lots of 2x10 cabs that are 8ohm each.
More speakers means more air moving, which means more noise.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

This looks a bit complicated to me. Have you thought about selling your amps/cabs and trying a different brand? You have quite a lot of power, but something doesn't seem right. L

[Mr. Foxen]

Rating cabs by watts, and mixing drivers are the not right bits.

[Lozz196]

I don`t think more "power" could be needed - 500 watts is a hellova lot. Yes all, I know we don`t measure volume by watts, but it`s very likely a 500 watt amp at full pelt will be loud.

My thoughts are that if by bigger gigs you mean big stages, and are worried about hearing yourself, maybe depth of sound is what is being sought. So in that respect, I`d look at either adding a 410 to one of the 210s, look at two 410s - or two 212s and stack them vertically. Added height will make hearing yourself easier, and added cones will increase the depth of the sound.

Although if playing places that big, everything should be going FOH, and hearing yourself should come via the monitors.

[chris_b]

By "big gigs" do you mean large spaces or important?

If they are important then buy good, off the shelf gear. It will be better than homemade stuff any day of the week.

If you mean large spaces go through the FOH. You can buy as many cabs as you like but you'll never compete satisfactorily with FOH on your own.


Swapping out speakers might work down the Dog and Duck but for "important” gigs I'd want something better.

As for an upgrade path I'd dump the lot and get something like an Aguilar TH500/Genz STL 9.2 and then look at Bergantino/Genz/Barefaced 212 cabs.

[molan]

If you do fancy a serious big power head then I'd suggest checking out the Carvin range.

Made in USA and you can get the 1500w head for about £500 and the 2050w for £625.

Amazing value for a big 'muscle' head, especially for something that isn't made on the cheap in China!

[0175westwood29]

id go for what lozz suggested get a nice 410 to go with the 210.

its more speakers that you need not more power, but a 410 with pa support should be plenty enough for you to hear yourself on stage, are you stacking the cabs vertically? id atleast try your set up for one gig and see if it holds up you might be surprised, or is your rig struggling atm?

andy

[stingrayPete1977]

If you know the 500watt cab sounds ok with the betas then you could load the other cab with the same knowing they will work then get the Genz 12.2 head (not everyone here will realise it has two 600watt amps built in), I doubt the claimed 600watt will trouble a 500 watt cab but the existing one will be held back by the 300 watt one at the moment.

What is struggling at the moment the head or cabs?

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1368779745' post='2081307']
The difference between 1000W and 500W is only 3dB, noticeable, but not by much. Changing speakers can cause problems as they have to match the box and more expensive speakers are not necessarily louder. One of the problems with mis matching speakers and box is that it may mean the speakers won't handle their rated power. Deltas have a limited Xmax excursion rating so this might be a problem. Without knowing the dimensions of your 2x10 and what drivers are in it this is all speculation, but you may be about to embark on a plan which won't deliver what you need.
[/quote]

I agree, when it comes to audio gear I would always advise someone to sell the thing that doesn't do what they want and buy something that does.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='aende' timestamp='1368780059' post='2081311']
Hi Phil,

I am using Eminence Beta's in one cab (500w total) and Eminence Alpha's in the other cab (300w total). The cabs are old Peavey TX's that have been refurbished.

I am thinking that the Delta's may give me more flexibility and I can make the cabs 8ohm instead of 4 ohm and use a wider range of amplifier......

Thoughts?
[/quote]

The betas are a couple of dB louder than the alphas but only in the midrange, their efficiency in the bass is the same. with the deltas you'd get a an extra 2dB of bass efficiency. However they all need different sized boxes to get the most out of them. The Alpha really needs a huge box to be at its best and the delta the smallest. They are all limited by their excursion which means putting even 250w of power through them from your E string will drive them into overload, so if you did get a bigger amp then you'd have to roll off the bass to avoid the speakers farting out. The alphas aren't really good enough for ported enclosures either. All of them have big midrange peaks which will make them quite punchy and 'loud' sounding. I think if I wanted a cheap fix I might swap out the alphas for betas so you have two matching cabs and then if you give me the dims of the cab and port I can help you tune the cab to get the best out of the betas, Try some really critical listening to the Beta filled cab to see if this is the sound you really love though.

Two Betas will cost you £105 and four Deltas £230, though the Deltas will give you a small increase in volume and tighter bass. There are better speakers for the money though four [size=3][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][color=#000000][b]Beyma SM110N w[/b][/color][/font][/size]ill cost about £200 and give you a much cleaner sound and more extended bass in a much better made speaker. the only downside is a bit of a wait to get them as Blue aran have to order them in from the factory in Spain.

Like everyone else I think your rig ought to be loud enough though and PA support is what you need for big gigs.