Would someone in my position benefit from having a teacher?

[Grangur]

Hi All,
I don't really want this thread to centre round "me" but I'm learning and wondering if I would move on faster if I had a teacher, even if on an irregular "consultancy" basis.

I've been self taught for the past 3 years. I'm progressing slowly, but would like to get there faster. I suspect, however, the answer is simply "practice more" rather than be on BC so much. I'm not young so, much as I'd love to deny it, things probably don't come as fast as they used to especially with RL being a distraction.

Never been in a band yet, but right now playing scores like "Star Spangled Banner" and "The Sound of Silence" by sight reading. (Tunes may not be a bass thing really, but unless you use a backing track normal bass riffs can get a bit tedious)

A teacher I went to once got me to buy the Trinity school books Grades 1&2 and I'm learning some in there. I don't know if I'm really interested in exams, but it's a sign of progress I guess.

"Where do you want to get to?" I hear you ask. I don't really know. Maybe that's my problem. I'd like to be playing jazzy bass lines in a band but probably don't have the time to commit.

Aside from getting rid of bad habits, from this info, do you think someone in my position would benefit from need a teacher?

Would a teacher help me progress faster?

What key benfits would a teacher bring?

Edited May 18, 2013 by Grangur

[BassBus]

The answer is more practice. Predictable as that might be you will have very little progress if you don't put the hours in.

A teacher would benefit anyone who wants to move on. A teacher would maybe help you focus on specific parts of your playing and certainly help you move away from certain bad habits. But then again it is sometimes those bad habits that contribute to an individual style of playing. I'm a big fan of Steve Hackett's playing but if you look at the way he uses his left hand fingers on the fretboard it's not exactly tidy.

What might be useful for you is to get hold of [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Band--RealBand-Music-Software-Windows/dp/B002FOQS2I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368868323&sr=8-1&keywords=band+in+a+box+2013"]Band in a Box[/url] software. You type chords into it, select a style, press play and you have a full backing arrangement you can play over. If you want to play the bass part simply mix out the bass. You can type in the notes as well so it plays the tune for you. Very flexible and endless fun for practice.

Edited May 18, 2013 by BassBus

[Coilte]

IMO lessons will be of benefit to anyone who takes them and is prepared to put in the practice recommended by the teacher.

Some of the main advantages of a teacher versus learning on your own is that a good teacher will assess where you are now and gradually build from there. The problem with learning from say the internet is that there is an overwhelming amount of information out there. So people are inclined to pick lessons that they fancy, at the same time leaving gaps in the learning process. They then find themselves back pedaling because they dont understand something that should have been covered before they got to that stage. The other obvious thing is that a teacher can point out what you are doing wrong. An often forgotten fact about a good teacher is that he/she can keep you motivated.

Having said all the above, there are people who can learn quite well on their own, but I have no doubt that progress is faster with a teacher.

The ideal thing is to take a set of lessons, maybe five or six. If practice time is scarce, then take them every fortnight to allow for practice in between. Then if you feel so inclined go it alone for a while, having asked the teacher's advice on how to proceed. If you find yourself in a rut or dead end, then get some more lessons to get you on the straight and narrow again.

You may notice that I have prefaced the word "teacher" with the word "good" each time. Try to get a teacher whose first and main instrument is bass. IMO, with a teacher who only shows you how to play songs, you will not progress very much.

One more thing I'd like to comment on is you remark... "would like to get there faster". "There".. is an abstract idea. Learning an instrument is a process. Be patient, take things in small steps and enjoy the learning process.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Coilte

[Coilte]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1368868231' post='2082375']
The answer is more practice. Predictable as that might be you will have very little progress if you don't put the hours in.
[/quote]

Absolutely no doubt about that. However there is so much information out there that often, people with the best intentions in the world, simply dont know where to start and how to proceed. This is where a teacher can be of major help, as explained in my post above.

[Faithless]

Trinity? Forget that sh*t - she's a monster performer, but on the other hand- a complete music-illiterate, it surprises me how does she manage to teach someone..
You've gotta get a teacher anyway,as he'll spot your weaknesses and save you time.
Check out something like this:
http://www.joehubbardbassvideos.com/

[Grangur]

Thanks all for your feedback.

Faithless, I'm confused about your coments on Trinity. Are we talking about the same thing; [url="https://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&biw=1366&bih=643&sclient=psy-ab&q=trinity+college+london:+rock+%26+pop+bass+guitar&oq=Trinity&gs_l=hp.1.0.35i39l2j0l2.1538.5852.0.8379.17.12.5.0.0.0.562.2011.7j3j0j1j0j1.12.0...0.0...1c.1.14.psy-ab.ueCwSMEcdbY&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.d2k&fp=91c159786e7c7909"]Trinity College London[/url] ?

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1368873163' post='2082470']
...One more thing I'd like to comment on is you remark... "would like to get there faster". "There".. is an abstract idea. Learning an instrument is a process. Be patient, take things in small steps and enjoy the learning process.
[/quote]
I agree. I know it's abstract, but what I'm aiming for is the stage where making up riffs to go with a band/rhythm all comes naturally to be entertaining... or is this a eutopia that we all dream of but only comes to the few?

That said, even when/if that stage comes, one is still on a process of learning to do more with improved technique etc.

[chris_b]

Everyone can benefit from lessons. Stevie Wonder still goes to a voice coach!

But at our level a good teacher can move your playing on in leaps and bounds when self teaching runs the risk of progress at a snail’s pace.

When you head's down and you're focusing on the small details you can miss much.

The best thing a good teacher can do is widen your horizons.

[Coilte]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1368881473' post='2082598']
I agree. I know it's abstract, but what I'm aiming for is the stage where making up riffs to go with a band/rhythm all comes naturally to be entertaining... or is this a eutopia that we all dream of but only comes to the few?
[/quote]

Two points I'd like to make on this.

1. Three years is a comparatively short time to be playing the bass. It is generally accepted that in order to become really proficient on an instrument, it takes in the region of ten thousand hours of focused practice, which brings us onto my second point.

2. The practice itself, i.e. what you actually practice. Can you give us some general idea as to what your practice has consisted of ?

For example, are you familar with scales and just as importantly, how chords are derived from them ?

Do you know what inversions are ?

Do you know why some chords are major, some minor and some diminished etc ?

Do you know where all the notes on the fretboard are ?

Are you familiar with intervals ? For example with of G major chord, would you know where the sixth of the chord is on the FB ?


Apologies all round, if you know these things already. The reason I asked is because learning all of the above will provide the building blocks to be able to make up your own riffs and bass lines.


You mentioned about wanting to learn some jazz. Great idea !! Learning basic walking bass lines is one of the best ways to incorporate all of the above points. They are useful not only for jazz but for putting your own lines to other types of music as well.

Let me know if I can be of any more help.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Coilte

[Grangur]

Coilte, many thanks for your really full answer and your questions.

[size=3][i]The practice itself, i.e. what you actually practice. Can you give us some general idea as to what your practice has consisted of ?[/i][/size]
What I consider to be good practice is
1. Practicing scales. Generaly I stick to major scales, (I know, I'm bad)
2. Playing a piece, reading the score and finding the notes on the fretboard
3. Playing a backing track from CD from the Trinity College books and playing the lines from the books that go with it. (I wish they didn't use Tabs!)
4 . I find scores for pieces and type them up in Musescore; creating them in bass clef and transposing to a suitable key.

[size=3][i]For example, are you familar with scales and just as importantly, how chords are derived from them ?[/i][/size]
Err.. I know Major and Minor scales and pentatonic. Chords are, i believe, the route(1), 3rd, 5th, 7th notes of a scale.... but then again I may be wrong.

[size=3][i]Do you know what inversions are ? [/i][/size]
Going up the scale, from the route to the octave, then going back down again to the route

[i][size=3]Do you know why some chords are major, some minor and some diminished etc ?[/size][/i]
These all have different intervals. The Major is Tone, Tone, Semi-tone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semi-tone.
The Minor is Tone, Semi-tone, Tone, Tone, Semi-tone, Tone, Tone.
After that I get confused with all the Phygorian, Locrian, Harmonic Minor etc. I know they all have different intervals to give different flavours to the music; blues, jazz, etc.

[i][size=3]Do you know where all the notes on the fretboard are ?[/size][/i]
Yes, some I can find faster than others. The answer to this is start playing the scores I have on different pars of the FB

[i][size=3]Are you familiar with intervals ? For example with of G major chord, would you know where the sixth of the chord is on the FB ?[/size][/i]
I've not been playing chords, but I could tell you where the 6th in the scale is in relation to the route or octave.

Thanks for some great questions.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Grangur

[cloudburst]

Seeing your response on chords and inversions.....Well, there's an area you should learn. Chords are a bit more varied than you suggest. And inversions are not playing down a scale :-)

The primary reason for learning chords is not about playing chords on bass - it's about learning to make better note choices in your bassline. You'll rarely play chords on bass.

Regarding teachers, I've known some who 'wing it' and really aren't good enough as players themselves to set themselves up as teachers. My advice would be to pick a style that you want to 'major' on and find a teacher who plays that style so well that you can't help but smile when they play.

As well as that (or instead) - it's vital to properly plan a schedule in order to get the best out of each practice session. Keep it varied so as not to get bored. 10 mins on scales, 10 mins on dexterity exercises, 10 mins on a new style, 10 mins on a new bassline you're trying to learn, 10 mins refreshing a few you've already learnt. etc

Also - use 'dead' time (eg when travelling on public transport) on iPhone apps such as fret-tester to learn the fretboard and 'relative pitch' to train your ear to intervals.

Always wear earphones when you can. Listen to bass rhythms so much that you live, breathe and sleep them. Listen to them so much that your heart beats the groove.

I'm not too sure what on earth you're doing playing The Star Spangled Banner and what-not? Are you reading it from a bass clef part? I'd say lose that nonsense and pick some groovy basslines that will teach you more about bass rhythms. If you keep finding basslines so boring, then I'd suggest dropping the bass guitar and picking a different instrument.

Hope this helps.

CB

Edited May 18, 2013 by cloudburst

[Coilte]

Hi again Grangur,

You have a fairly good grasp of basic theory, but you seem to be getting some things confused. I'll go through them briefly in a minute.

BTW, I am not a teacher. I have being playing for about six years, and my own knowledge of theory is fairly basic. All I can do is convey what I was taught and what has worked for me.

IMO, the very first two words ("practicing scales") on your list could well be the root (pun intended ) of your problem with not being able to invent your own bass lines. Dont get me wrong, it is VERY important to know your scales, but [b]chord tones[/b] are what most bassists play 90% of the time. You are correct, chords are made by using every other note in a scale, i.e. 1,3,5,7 etc. Another way of putting it is "stacking thirds". Let me explain. We will take a major scale, write it out, and stack thirds, working from the bottom up.

C Major scale is :

CDEFGAB(C ) - Now we will put this at the bottom and work upwards, and begin each line with the third note of the line below it.


BCDEFGA
GABCDEF
EFGABCD
CDEFGAB

Now.. if we read each line from left to right from the bottom up we have all the diatonic ( this means using only the notes from a given scale) chords from the C major scale.

The first line on the left going up, is CEGB which spells the C major 7th chord.

The second line from the left is DFAC which is Dm7. Why ? It is the third of a chord that determines whether it is Maj or minor
In the Dm chord the interval from D to F is a minor third. An interval is the distance between two notes.

Inversions are where the lowest sounding note of a chord is not the root. So C maj is CEG. This is the root inversion. Now if we start on the E, we get EGC which is the first inversion. It is still C maj, but sounds a bit different to the root inversion.

I dont want to get you too bogged down in theory for now. I would [b]strongly recommend [/b]that you check out the web site below and spend some time going through the lessons. It explains everything above, as well as lots more, better than I can.

Here the web site deals with the importance of chord tones over scales.

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/"]http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/[/url]



Here is the list of lessons, starting with the basics and building, step by step.

[url="http://www.studybass.com/study-guide/"]http://www.studybass.com/study-guide/[/url]




Perhaps you could give this site a try for a month or two before deciding on a teacher.


If you have any questions, feel free to PM me and I will do my best to help you out.



Best of luck with it.

[Grangur]

Hi Cloudburst and Coilte,
Thanks, Coilte for reminding me about the Studybass web site, I used to use that some time back but something must have distracted me from it. I'll get back there.

Playing stuff other than bass lines: I've been doing this as a way of forcing me to learn the FB. If you have a score you know the tune of, then read it (on the bass clef) and have to find the notes, then you learn the FB.... job done now I guess. Now move on.

Cloudburst, yes I realise we rarely play chords on the bass. I drive a lot and listen to music all the time, listening to the bass line, or inventing variations on what I hear, for what I'd play to the track. (If my skill was such as to find the right notes.)

WRT teachers, I've been looking for one in my area. We don't appear to have many. One I tried seemed to centre on teaching me to slap n pop and in my inability to keep each of my fingers 10mm above each of the strings on frets 1, 2, 3 & 4 all the time., whilst keeping my thumb no higher than 1/2way up the width of the neck. I tried it and started pulling things in the back of my hand. I'll keep looking.

Inversions: thanks for that. I didn't realise that's what that was called.

I'll go back and study the studybass site some more. Also I'd probably do well to go back to the book "Crash Course Bass", by Stuart Clayton.

Thanks again

Rich

[Grangur]

Just another thought... something else i practice is Root, 3rd, 5th, octave of various chords and playing around the circle of 5ths, taking note of the notes I'm playing, not just playing "the box".

Thanks again

Rich

[Coilte]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1368946789' post='2083199']
I'll go back and study the studybass site some more.
[/quote]

I genuinely think that "Study Bass" is the way to go. Start at the beginning and make sure you understand each lesson before moving on.

Perhaps later on, when you have a handle on what we talked about previously, you could check out this (link below) book on walking bass lines. It explains things very simply and comes with a play along CD on which the bass can be isolated if required. It has bass clef too, so you'd be also keeping your reading skills sharpened. However, I'd recommend getting the basics down first with Study Bass, before working on the book.

Speaking of walking bass lines, I have also linked another set of lessons from You Tube. I think there are ten in all, and again the good thing is that they start with the basics and build gradually.

Best of luck...and happy practicing !!



Walking Bass Book :

[url="http://www.amazon.com/dp/0786659963"]http://www.amazon.com/dp/0786659963[/url]



You Tube Lessons :

[url="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dave+marks+walking+bass+lesson+01&oq=dave+marks&gs_l=youtube.1.0.0l5.6370.10959.0.14033.10.10.0.0.0.0.157.1205.0j10.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.VECdhPnZKcM"]http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dave+marks+walking+bass+lesson+01&oq=dave+marks&gs_l=youtube.1.0.0l5.6370.10959.0.14033.10.10.0.0.0.0.157.1205.0j10.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.VECdhPnZKcM[/url]

[Coilte]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1368950656' post='2083228']
Just another thought... something else i practice is Root, 3rd, 5th, octave of various chords and playing around the circle of 5ths, taking note of the notes I'm playing, not just playing "the box".

Thanks again

Rich
[/quote]

An excellent exercise !!! When you learn about inversions you can do this exercise starting on the 3rd and then the 5th. You can also include the 7th.

That You Tube link I posted has you doing this later on in the lessons.

[XB26354]

It's important to realise what lessons of any type are for: you enter rinto a contract where, someone with more experience and knowledge than you passes on the benefit of that knowledge in a structured way, and you agree to employ the techniques and suggestions in those lessons to improve. If you get a good teacher and really put the hard work in, you will definitely improve, and quickly. If you go to lessons expecting the teacher to 'make' you a better player, you will be disappointed. All a teacher can do is open the door a touch and give an indication of the way: it is up to the student to go though the door.
Music theory can be learned from a book or from any of the many websites around. There is no need whatsoever to learn it from a teacher, unless you really cannot understand something, but even then, the wonder of the Internet should be able to provide an answer very quickly. When you've got as much learned as you can, and really don't feel like you can improve, then a teacher may be able to take you to the next level. A good teacher can be hard to find and you won't always fit with their personality, so if you don't think you're getting anything out of lessons (having put the hard work in!) then the teacher probably isn't up to much.