sweetspot questions

[Prime_BASS]

I love basses that have a pickup in the 'sweetspot'

However I've been wondering recently, its generally accepted that its in between the two jazz pickups on jazz bass, musicman, modulus f/u, sandberg basic all have a single pickup there. These are all standard 34 inch scale. so I wondering, is the sweetspot different on different scale basses? (30, 32, 35 inch?)


Stephen

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1368880894' post='2082586']
I love basses that have a pickup in the 'sweetspot'

However I've been wondering recently, its generally accepted that its in between the two jazz pickups on jazz bass, musicman, modulus f/u, sandberg basic all have a single pickup there. These are all standard 34 inch scale. so I wondering, is the sweetspot different on different scale basses? (30, 32, 35 inch?)


Stephen
[/quote]
Surely the so-called sweetspot moves every time you fret a note?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368881217' post='2082593']
Surely the so-called sweetspot moves every time you fret a note?
[/quote]

This.

[Dingus]

The so- called sweetspot is different because there are in effect different kinds of sweetness . A Precision wouldn't sound the same with its' pickup in the Musicman Stingray position and vice versa .

[Dingus]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368881217' post='2082593']
Surely the so-called sweetspot moves every time you fret a note?
[/quote]
[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1368881827' post='2082608']
This.
[/quote]

In effect , no it doesn't . All pickups are placed in a static position . Where that position is has a profound effect on the overall sound coming from the bass . The variable speaking length of the string is a given constant , and the pickup position gives a similar tonal character to notes played anywhere along the string , regardless . In reality , you have to put the pickup somewhere and some spots are sweeter than others .

[Ziphoblat]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1368883619' post='2082628']
In effect , no it doesn't . All pickups are placed in a static position . Where that position is has a profound effect on the overall sound coming from the bass . The variable speaking length of the string is a given constant , and the pickup position gives a similar tonal character to notes played anywhere along the string , regardless . In reality , you have to put the pickup somewhere and some spots are sweeter than others .
[/quote]

I believe the point about the sweet-spot is that it's usually suggested to be a specific point relative to the part of string that's actually vibrating, which obviously changes in length depending on where you are on the fretboard.

[geoffbyrne]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1368883619' post='2082628']
The variable speaking length of the string is a given constant......
[/quote]

Errrrrr - explain that term please?

G.

[Dingus]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1368884666' post='2082647']
Errrrrr - explain that term please?

G.
[/quote]

It means you can take it for granted that it was understood by whoever made the decision where to put the pickup that the player would be fretting notes and changing the speaking length of the string .

Edited May 18, 2013 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1368883975' post='2082638']
I believe the point about the sweet-spot is that it's usually suggested to be a specific point relative to the part of string that's actually vibrating, which obviously changes in length depending on where you are on the fretboard.
[/quote]

I understand that , and that is exactly the point that I am taking issue with . Of course the relative length of the string will change , but the practical reality is that in effect the sweetspot stays fairly constant .

Edited May 18, 2013 by Dingus

[BassTractor]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1368883975' post='2082638']
I believe the point about the sweet-spot is that it's usually suggested to be a specific point relative to the part of string that's actually vibrating, which obviously changes in length depending on where you are on the fretboard.
[/quote]

It may have been understood like that by some, but it was never explained like that back then.
Whilst there may be zillions of rather sweet or extremely sweet spots, as well as light spots and diet spots, the chosen one was chosen as a good compromise for the overall sound.
Also keep in mind that fretting a string does not change the formant, present even on electrical instruments.
The explanation that followed in the press releases showed that they knew exactly what they were talking about.

Now, the actual value of that exact sweet spot as opposed to others, or indeed its importance altogether, is a different matter. But they were never unaware of strings being fretted and string knots moving as a result. Of course they were aware. It's basic knowledge.

best,
bert

[EssentialTension]

So, there's no such thing as a 'sweetspot'.

There's merely different places to put a pickup and each place will be a factor in the overall sound of the bass. An aspect fo the sound of a P bass comes from the position of it's pickup. Same for a J bass, but the pickups are in different palces. And same again for an MM or any other bass. Where you place the pickup makes a difference but the idea of some magical 'sweetspot' - it's nonsense.

[stingrayPete1977]

Its not even that simple because any string length before the bridge saddles and after the nut still make a huge difference, my strung thru pre eb had much more tension than my top loaded one for example.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1368896014' post='2082802']
Its not even that simple because any string length before the bridge saddles and after the nut still make a huge difference, my strung thru pre eb had much more tension than my top loaded one for example.
[/quote]
Beyond the nut and/or the bridge can make no difference whatsoever to tension.

Tension = length of string between bridge and nut/fret x mass per unit length of string. - [I forgot to put in here the pitch to which the string is tuned.]

You may have experienced a difference in compliance but not tension.

EDIT: [url="http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm"]http://liutaiomottol.../perception.htm[/url]

EDIT2: For clarification

Edited May 18, 2013 by EssentialTension

[stingrayPete1977]

There are too many terms and not enough ways to describe things but it still affects tone, double basses can be fitted with fine tuners fitted on the tail piece which only alters tension (length or whatever way you want to describe the difference it will make) between the rear of the bridge and the tail rather than moving the saddle on a standard bridge.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1368897500' post='2082824']
There are too many terms and not enough ways to describe things but it still affects tone, double basses can be fitted with fine tuners fitted on the tail piece which only alters tension (length or whatever way you want to describe the difference it will make) between the rear of the bridge and the tail rather than moving the saddle on a standard bridge.
[/quote]
Well a fine tuner like that is still affecting the pitch of the string and the tension in the string. But tension is not the same as compliance.

And just on the issue of string-through-body - I know some people swear by it, but I have never been able to hear or feel any difference.

[stingrayPete1977]

Just read the link and its good, very interesting.

[stingrayPete1977]

I set up the two stingrays as identicle as I could (using feeler gauges) eb 40-100 strings and I am sure 99 percent of bass players would have said the strung through had more tension (ok maybe we would be wrong scientifically) but if the strings felt more taught when tuned on the same tuner what can you say?

Still interesting how the db fine tuners work, a year ago I would have laughed them off as rubbish!

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1368898660' post='2082835']
I set up the two stingrays as identicle as I could (using feeler gauges) eb 40-100 strings and I am sure 99 percent of bass players would have said the strung through had more tension (ok maybe we would be wrong scientifically) but if the strings felt more taught when tuned on the same tuner what can you say?

Still interesting how the db fine tuners work, a year ago I would have laughed them off as rubbish!
[/quote]
Although I am too cack handed to notice any difference in compliance myself (it's definitely not a difference in tension) I am willing to accept that someone might notice a difference - in compliance.

However, the difference in compliance from moving plucking fingers nearer or further away from the bridge is much much greater than any imaginable difference from string-through-body so I don't at all understand why anyone would be bothered one way or the other.

[stingrayPete1977]

If this does not affect tension only compliance how can it alter the tuning?
http://www.thestringzone.co.uk/thomastik-violin-tailpiece-with-integrated-fine-tuners

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368898948' post='2082843']

Although I am too cack handed to notice any difference in compliance myself (it's definitely not a difference in tension) I am willing to accept that someone might notice a difference - in compliance.

However, the difference in compliance from moving plucking fingers nearer or further away from the bridge is much much greater than any imaginable difference from string-through-body so I don't at all understand why anyone would be bothered one way or the other.
[/quote]
No it didnt bother me, they were both ace!

[stingrayPete1977]

Anyway I don't think my level of db playing will improve much with or without one! looking at various listing by different makers some talk of tuning, others compliance or tension so maybe its more of a term issue than an actual issue?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1368899081' post='2082848']
No it didnt bother me, they were both ace!
[/quote]

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1368899029' post='2082846']
If this does not affect tension only compliance how can it alter the tuning?
[url="http://www.thestringzone.co.uk/thomastik-violin-tailpiece-with-integrated-fine-tuners"]http://www.thestring...ted-fine-tuners[/url]
[/quote]
If it's a tuner then it affects tension; compliance has nothing to do with it.

[stingrayPete1977]

Then altering the length of string behind the bridge has altered the tension?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1368901518' post='2082876']
Then altering the length of string behind the bridge has altered the tension?
[/quote]
Altering the length of the string beyond the bridge cannot by definition (or in any other sense) affect tension. Anyway, a tuner does not alter the length of a string.

I know nothing about violin fine tuners but they must somehow be tightening the string or loosening the string to adjust its pitch, just like any other tuner.

Edited May 18, 2013 by EssentialTension