Dead Musicians

[flyfisher]

The Ray Manzarak RIP topic got me thinking.

it's absolutely right, of course, to mark the passing of great and influential musicicans but I don't entirely get the "great loss" thing.

Assuming they've made it to a ripe old age then their best work is usually behind them so there's usually no real musical loss involved. Indeed, the very thing that defines such musicicans is the fact that their body of work is NOT lost - it's available to all of us, forever, as well as generations not yet born. These great musicians are leaving a fantastic musical legacy that will rightly live on . . . . where's the 'loss' in that?

[xgsjx]

Since the demise of the Doors, I don't think anyone knew he was still alive!
That goes for all the recent OAPs that's recently (or ever) passed away.
The only exceptions seem to be towards the ones that are still on the go & refuse to give up & we usually say "hurry up & die & give us some peace"!
A good example was Frank Sinatra. His demise wasn't a great loss, he left a brilliant back catalogue!

But, yes. I agree with you.

[Bilbo]

If you are trying to do research for a biography on anyone who is over 30, EVERYBODY is a great loss.

[risingson]

It's a turn of phrase more than anything, I don't think it's meant to be taken quite as literally as you've taken it. The idea of loss when a good musician dies is the person being left behind that created the music, I don't think it infers that the person in question had more to offer or even died too young in the case of Ray Manzarek.

[timmo]

I guess he is a loss because he was a founder member of an iconic band. It would be sad if someone out of JLS lost his life for example, but I wouldn`t think it is a loss to music personally. So really I guess it is a loss if that person contributed in some way to your life if it is through music or any other media.

[Dad3353]

It happens all the time, of course, but particularly in the post-war pop/rock 'scene'; we're going to see more and more of this generation step off this mortal coil, purely by natural aging (hastened by illness, for some, it's true...). Real life is somewhat similar; once one reaches a certain age, there are more funerals to be attended than weddings. Such is life.
I agree with the sentiment expressed that 'loss' is a rather inappropriate term for most musicians who, let's face it, we have never known personally, and have, for the most part, ceased to produce master works for some time. I wouldn't go as far as to wish 'Good riddance..!' on some of the dinasaurs still lurching around today, but I'm often tempted..! Uncharitable, I know; no-one is perfect.
Maybe a whole forum area needs creating, along the lines of the obituary columns in the Times..?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1369143006' post='2085357']
It's a turn of phrase more than anything, I don't think it's meant to be taken quite as literally as you've taken it.
[/quote]

Probably not. Fair point.


[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1369143295' post='2085360']
I guess he is a loss because he was a founder member of an iconic band. It would be sad if someone out of JLS lost his life for example, but I wouldn`t think it is a loss to music personally. So really I guess it is a loss if that person contributed in some way to your life if it is through music or any other media.
[/quote]

That's the thing I don't really agree with. I'm a big Doors fan and Manzarak was clearly key to that, but I didn't know him personally and I still have access to his great music, so where's the 'loss'? After all, The Doors 'died' decades ago so we've all managed quite well without them for years.

[kjm]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1369145029' post='2085394']
Probably not. Fair point.




That's the thing I don't really agree with. I'm a big Doors fan and Manzarak was clearly key to that, but I didn't know him personally and I still have access to his great music, so where's the 'loss'? After all, The Doors 'died' decades ago so we've all managed quite well without them for years.
[/quote]


So we really should care less when someone or something is gone that provided us with great music or whatever, because we did not know them personally I,m sorry sounds a little shallow to me

[timmo]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1369145029' post='2085394']
Probably not. Fair point.




That's the thing I don't really agree with. I'm a big Doors fan and Manzarak was clearly key to that, but I didn't know him personally and I still have access to his great music, so where's the 'loss'? After all, The Doors 'died' decades ago so we've all managed quite well without them for years.
[/quote]
Very true. But some people see it from different perspectives. As you said, it would only be a loss to most people if they were still contributing. Jim Morrison could have been a loss at 27, and Gerry Garcia could be considered a loss at 53 as he was still active .But , if someone feels he is a loss to them because they touched their lives somehow, then I it is ok with me. I would consider someone who has not been active a loss if they still had tales to tell and went to the grave with them.Some of those are better than the music. Some musicians that inspire are a loss for the experience they could still give, even if they haven`t been in a band for years

Edited May 21, 2013 by timmo

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1369144771' post='2085391']
It happens all the time, of course, but particularly in the post-war pop/rock 'scene'; we're going to see more and more of this generation step off this mortal coil, purely by natural aging (hastened by illness, for some, it's true...). Real life is somewhat similar; once one reaches a certain age, there are more funerals to be attended than weddings. Such is life.
I agree with the sentiment expressed that 'loss' is a rather inappropriate term for most musicians who, let's face it, we have never known personally, and have, for the most part, ceased to produce master works for some time. I wouldn't go as far as to wish 'Good riddance..!' on some of the dinasaurs still lurching around today, but I'm often tempted..! Uncharitable, I know; no-one is perfect.
Maybe a whole forum area needs creating, along the lines of the obituary columns in the Times..?
[/quote]

I am increasingly convinced that in this age of celebrity culture there will need to be a new rolling news channel just for obituaries of people you have heard of who have died. Ray got bumped from todays obligatory obituaries as by lunchtime the chap who wrote Eric and Ernies gags had also died.
It is sad when people die, but my FB and Twitter timelines are now constantly filled up with identical "RIP some geezer from some band who you should have heard of but might not have" posts. It can be annoying, and when showing respect for the dead becomes an irritant, something is wrong, I stick with raising my hat, and muttering "how very sad" to myself and then going about my day.

Wall to wall dead rockstars for the next 40-50 years, and on and on and on mark my words. Celebrity obituary channel any day now.

[JellyKnees]

[quote name='kjm' timestamp='1369148124' post='2085446']
So we really should care less when someone or something is gone that provided us with great music or whatever, because we did not know them personally I,m sorry sounds a little shallow to me
[/quote]

Not really...it's preferable to all the undignified mawkish faux sentimentality that 'we' have collectively indulged in ever since the death of lady dido.

[Cat Burrito]

I too have similar views to the OP. Just because someone was in a film 40yrs ago that you saw on ITV or played on a record you liked but haven't actually played for at least 15yrs does not justify the public out pouring of grief. When I was at college Freddie Mercury died and the next day when I walked through the halls of residence Radio Gaga was blasting out of every other room. Nobody had ever mentioned Queen at college before and the whole thing just didn't sit right with me. Grief should be a private time of reflection and I do feel a little awkward around some of the social media tributes. And to be a mass of contradiction I have personally commented on 2 or 3 myself over the years but not every single celebrity who has lived to a ripe old age and I hardly knew their work. Apologies for my soap box rant!

[timmo]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1369148737' post='2085457']


Wall to wall dead rockstars for the next 40-50 years, and on and on and on mark my words. Celebrity obituary channel any day now.

[/quote]Too be honest, I would much rather that than E channel on the brain dead Kardashians etc. At least there would be some discernible talent on it. I find some things different for me. The passing of Ronnie Barker and Frank Thornton for example had a little sadness as they are people who I grew up watching, and they were always on TV. Perhaps that is to do with me knowing I am getting older. I like the Small Faces, so Steve Marriot had a slight effect due to the way he died. But Frank Sinatra had a great long life, so it made no difference to me, a bit like Ray Manzarak. But if someone posts the passing of someone I don`t know or care about, I will respect it and just pass it by. If a friend posts the passing on FB, again I will respect it. The only time it gets unsettling for me when we have outpourings of grief like we had for Lady Di

[Dave Vader]

what about the week and a half of thatcher on the Telly? That was fun....

[toneknob]

I think a world without Ray Manzarek is worse off than a world with him in it. That's a loss if you ask me.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1369148737' post='20854'] ..."RIP some geezer from some band who you should have heard of but might not have"
[/quote]

Surely everyone's heard of Sabbath?
I didn't know he'd died...

Edited May 21, 2013 by Lfalex v1.1

[timmo]

[quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1369151067' post='2085506']
I think a world without Ray Manzarek is worse off than a world with him in it. That's a loss if you ask me.
[/quote]That is a great post, and a good way of looking at it. A RIP to someone talented and you respect is enough, and in my opinion acceptable. A week and a half or months is far too much

[flyfisher]

[quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1369151067' post='2085506']
I think a world without Ray Manzarek is worse off than a world with him in it. That's a loss if you ask me.
[/quote]

I'd turn that sentiment around and say that the world (well, mine anyway) is better for Mazarek's musical contribution, but it hasn't suddenly become worse just because he has died.

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't mark the passing of people who have had an impact on our lives, of course we should, but I prefer to mark such things in terms of celebrating their contributions rather than mourning their passing.

Just a personal thing I guess.

[alyctes]

[quote name='BurritoBass' timestamp='1369149513' post='2085479']
... When I was at college Freddie Mercury died and the next day when I walked through the halls of residence Radio Gaga was blasting out of every other room. Nobody had ever mentioned Queen at college before and the whole thing just didn't sit right with me. ...
[/quote]

I'm still hoping Cliff Richard will outlive me...

Edited May 21, 2013 by alyctes