Posting images of Rickenbacker copies

[Mornats]

I see John Hall alienating the 2nd largest online bass player community in the world whilst the likes of Garey from Warwick and the guys from Overwater (and I'm sure many others) come on here to answer questions and give help and advice and listen to us. I know where my money's going.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Mornats

[Billy Apple]

I don't seem to be able to quote BRX's post, so, BRX, who does make Rockingbetters, and moreover where does the notion come from that all of them are made by Tokai?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1369342864' post='2088239']
"Otherwise why not call it a Tokai..."

Because they aren't made by Tokai. If they were, then it would say "Tokai" on the TRC. You can check this out by going to Music Inn on Canning Circus where they have two rather nicely made Rickenbacker copy guitars both showing the Tokai logo. They also have some Rockinbetter basses, which when you compare them are not at all in the same league when it comes to build quality and finish.
[/quote] what i was going to say...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1369376377' post='2088425']
I don't seem to be able to quote BRX's post, so, BRX, who does make Rockingbetters, and moreover where does the notion come from that all of them are made by Tokai?
[/quote]

AFAIK Rockinbetters are made in some Chinese factory that may (or may not) also make some of the budget end Tokai branded instruments. However there is no evidence that there are any direct links between Rockinbetter and Tokai Gakki (the Japanese company that owns the Tokai brand). Tokai have no problem making and selling Rickenbacker-style guitars with the Tokai logo on the TRC (and it's the standard Tokai script logo rather than the faux Rickenbacker logo of the Rockinbetters) and there are actually two examples of these guitars in one of the local music shops here in Nottingham. However I have never seen a 4001/4003 style bass with the Tokai logo on it, and no matter how often I scour the Digimart web site, one never shows up in any search.

The notion that Rockinbetters are made by Tokai, comes mainly from various importers of the instruments, some of whom are also importers and distributers of Tokai. Because Tokai don't actually make a 4001/4003 type bass, there is a gap in the importer's product line for this kind of instrument and the Rockinbetter neatly fills it. The supposed association with Tokai helps to inflate the price of these instruments which in reality are rather ordinary MIC quality and certainly no one would consider paying the current asking price without the perceived Tokai association. You will be hard-pushed to find anyone playing up the Tokai angle for Rockinbetters who doesn't have a vested interest maintaining this myth (probably because they are trying to sell you one).

TBH moving the production of some of the Tokai range out of Japan (and the subsequent lowering of quality of the non MIJ instruments) has hurt the image of the the Tokai brand to the extent that the Rckinbetter claims can even begin to be taken seriously. The Rockinbetters that I've seen and played aren't a patch on the quality of instruments that Tokai became famous for in the 80s.

[ead]

In the back of my mind I think that I recall Coca Cola trying to claim IP on the curvy shape of their bottles. I can't remeber the specific details but I've a feeling they were ultimately unsuccessful. Could be completely wrong.

Just for the record, in a former life I invented the ball and all its derivatives so will now start taking aggressive legal action against players so that I can save up to buy loads of Rickenfakers, Rockinbetters et al. World domination surely can't be far away.

[BluRay]

[size=5][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][sup]The Mods are spot on. Fighting talk’s all well and good, but would anyone REALLY (and personally) risk an injunction just to prove a point about (someone else’s) copyright infringement? I bloody wouldn’t. Best to calmly cease and desist as requested, have a quiet laugh about corporate paranoia, and put our money elsewhere. If I’d saved up enough for a real ric, I’d buy another Yamaha 2024. [/sup][/font][/size]

[charic]

[quote name='BluRay' timestamp='1369389999' post='2088603']
[size=5][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][sup]The Mods are spot on. Fighting talk’s all well and good, but would anyone REALLY (and personally) risk an injunction just to prove a point about (someone else’s) copyright infringement? I bloody wouldn’t. Best to calmly cease and desist as requested, have a quiet laugh about corporate paranoia, and put our money elsewhere. If I’d saved up enough for a real ric, I’d buy another Yamaha 2024. [/sup][/font][/size]
[/quote]

If I saved enough for a Rick I'd go custom build...

Oh wait! I did and got change

[Gust0o]

[quote name='foxton4001' timestamp='1369324121' post='2087843']
Put yourself in his shoes.
[/quote]

As a businessman, I think I can - and there's much I could, and would, do better.

In short, targeting second-hand sales of older instruments is not preserving his value chain. He's losing that (if he genuinely is - see my comment below) to the current manufacturers, the ones currently going up against his new instruments and possibly impacting his sales and revenue, and that should be the target of his ire - if he can logistically do so.

He needs to show willing in respect of defending his rights, and I agree with that. But, again, he's treating the symptoms and not the cause - and I would suggest there are better things a CEO could be doing, instead of personally intervening in rather agressive terms.

At the minute his actions are brand impacting. Which is one of this key assets. He's a small manufacturer, possibly even an artisan producer, making a small(ish) number of instruments and selling on the basis of a strong brand - and his personal actions are now impacting that.

There's much more he could do. Mid-level instruments, or some other method to engage people with the value chain early and then "grow" them into the genuine Rickenbacker article? Or selling out on the differences of the real thing versus the fake - knowing that the £200 market wasn't his to play in, anyway; I mean, that could be the shock of it all, that actually there's very little impact, as the people spending small amounts on fake instruments were not the people he was selling his to!

Sigh. There's a lot I could do his shoes.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1369390388' post='2088608']
If I saved enough for a Rick I'd go custom build...
[/quote]

...and build a Rickenbacker clone.

It'd probably be better too!

[charic]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1369392878' post='2088639']
...and build a Rickenbacker clone.

It'd probably be better too!
[/quote]

I would not condone such a thing...

Without adding some decent contours, taking away the parrallel strings, changing the bridge, changing the neck profile and possibly changing the pickups (undecided there)

[andydye]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1369393047' post='2088645']
I would not condone such a thing...

Without adding some decent contours, taking away the parrallel strings, changing the bridge, changing the neck profile and possibly changing the pickups (undecided there)
[/quote]

change the body and headstock shape too cos they look mingin, body's a bit thin too wouldn't you say?

[charic]

[quote name='andydye' timestamp='1369393116' post='2088648']
change the body and headstock shape too cos they look mingin, body's a bit thin too wouldn't you say?
[/quote]

The looks I don't mind but I think it like it in some kind of blue burst that didn't rub off.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1369391377' post='2088619']
As a businessman, I think I can - and there's much I could, and would, do better.

[/quote]

I agree.

If there's one aspect of all this that keeps slipping under the radar, it is that a number of Basschatters have quite correctly pointed out that John Hall has rights, but very few have mentioned that WE have rights too!

The fact that John Hall has rights does NOT mean that what he does is automatically correct (for any given value of "correct") ... life is always a matter of balance, and his approach is unbalanced.

I'm a businessman too. I am the Finance Director for an international group with annual turnover >£120m and about 800 employees. The last figures I saw for RIC (2007) suggested that their turnover was US$16m and that they had 65 employees. I am [u][b]NOT [/b][/u]suggesting that this means that I am somehow better or smarter or more important than John Hall - just pointing out that I am not entirely out of my depth here.

Hanging on my wall is

[URL=http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/h4ppyjack/media/Basses%20CURRENT/Antoria%20SG%201970s%20CURRENT/CIMG1328_zps93a4b43b.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/h4ppyjack/Basses%20CURRENT/Antoria%20SG%201970s%20CURRENT/CIMG1328_zps93a4b43b.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

It's cheap copy of a Gibson which I bought in good faith as a cheap copy.

It's currently for sale here on Basschat as a cheap copy of a Gibson which I'm selling in good faith.

No one thinks it's a Gibson, anyone who buys this (for £100 for God's sake) is not going to be a candidate to buy a real Gibson, no sales are being lost, no brand damage is being done, no animals were harmed in this production.

I have a RIGHT to sell this bass, and I would be appalled if Gibson (or whoever owns them these days) suddenly threatened me with injunctions and law-suits for daring to sell an old bass.

And this is Gibson, remember, the actual people who really, really brought that famous "lawsuit" which is inaccurately mentioned by so many eBayers.

I respect John Hall's rights. I don't know him, I know very little about him or his company, but I do know that I have no business telling him how to run his life.

The flip side of that, of course, is that he has absolutely no business telling me how to run mine.

As a businessman, I find myself wondering how much more he could achieve if he took all the energy he currently pours into wrecking his firm's reputation amongst bass players, and re-allocated it into something useful like managing his company.

[Dave Vader]

as a business man that was a damn fine way of advertising your damn fine bass that I wish I could justify buying off you.



Well played sir.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1369396689' post='2088710']
as a business man that was a damn fine way of advertising your damn fine bass that I wish I could justify buying off you.



Well played sir.
[/quote]

[skankdelvar]

IIRC, back in the 60's Rickpwnbacker produced a line of lower cost, less well finished guitars under the brand names Electro, Ryder and Contello which closely resembled Ric models of the day and were sold to dealers who didn't have a Ric agency and - one assumes - to mop up the lower end of the market. Pretty much what some of us have been suggesting for a while.

At that time, the company was under the direction of Mr [i]Francis[/i] Hall, the man responsible for the groundbreaking and iconic instruments which continue to form the bulk of Ric's output today. Mr Francis Hall (a well respected industry old-timer) retired in 1984, since which time his son John has enhanced the company's reputation for quality control, component longevity, innovation and friendly public relations.

[Stacker]

Slightly off thread but [i]a propos[/i] of Ricks, I'd popped into GuitarGuitar in Edinburgh the other day for a mosey and a chat. Trade was good, they said, as I turned to the small selection of Ricks in the corner. "How are they selling?" I enquired. Not well, came the reply. The cynic in me wondered why.

I wonder if anyone from Rosetti (RIC UK importer) is following this thread in angst. I also wonder if they've had the courage (and temerity) to call up the little guy: "John? We need to talk........"

Edited May 25, 2013 by Stacker

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='Stacker' timestamp='1369460951' post='2089459']
Slightly off thread but [i]a propos[/i] of Ricks, I'd popped into GuitarGuitar in Edinburgh the other day for a mosey and a chat. Trade was good, they said, as I turned to the small selection of Ricks in the corner. "How are they selling?" I enquired. Not well, came the reply. The cynic in me wondered why.

I wonder if anyone from Rosetti (RIC UK importer) is following this thread in angst. I also wonder if they've had the courage (and temerity) to call up the little guy: "John? We need to talk........"
[/quote]
Suggesting the basschat would have an effect on Ric sales is a version of some alternative reality. It's a trivial forum that people read - that's all.

The man is doing the right thing. I applaud him. You know, I thought we generally frowned on counterfeit goods as a nation - but apparently not when we have a vested interest.

[ped]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1369473371' post='2089545']
Suggesting the basschat would have an effect on Ric sales is a version of some alternative reality. It's a trivial forum that people read - that's all.
[/quote]

That's not what our advertisers say.

[Green Alsatian]

These basses not counterfeit goods. If they had a 'Rickenbacker' truss rod cover, then yes they would be, but they don't and are clearly branded for what they are - copies. No laws are being broken outside the US in the sale or trade of these items, same with copies of any other brand.

If I were John Hall, I'd be vesting my efforts in improving the quality and image of my brand, rather than swatting flies which will not affect him financially.

That said, I think the reason they aren't selling is simply due to them being expensive luxury item (around £1700) in this financial climate. I don't think for one minute that copies or feelings towards the company are the reason they aren't selling over here. I owned and enjoyed a 4001 for ten years and I would like another - love the look and feel of them and the sound is unique. It's the price of one that puts me off these days, but I know a copy wouldn't satisfy me having owned the genuine article. You only have to look at the number of folk who buy a P-bass copy, realise the love it and then lust after the 'real deal' American series. John could use this to his advantage.

As a side note, I think the nail in the coffin for any copies would be if Rickenbacker licenced Cort (or similar) to make a version of the bass with a reduced spec as the likes of MusicMan, G&L and Lakland have done with their 'Sterling' and 'Tribute' and 'Skyline' series. Built to a price point, but still a quality instrument, albeit not as refined as the US-made instruments.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Green Alsatian

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='ped' timestamp='1369475843' post='2089583']
That's not what our advertisers say.
[/quote]

It's a bit of fun basschat, that's all. It won't affect the sales of Rickenbackers one bit. In fact, if it does [i]anything[/i] it will publish the name ... in an "any publicity is good publicity" kinda way.

You have a good site Ped. No question ........... but whatever basschat says or does about any brand of bass, other than the real man in a shed operations, will have zero effect on anything.

[Silvia Bluejay]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1369488772' post='2089742']
It's a bit of fun basschat, that's all. It won't affect the sales of Rickenbackers one bit. In fact, if it does [i]anything[/i] it will publish the name ... in an "any publicity is good publicity" kinda way.

You have a good site Ped. No question ........... but whatever basschat says or does about any brand of bass, other than the real man in a shed operations, will have zero effect on anything.
[/quote]

Hmmm.... I do not agree one bit, and nor do my teachers/mentors at the business courses I'm taking in reputation management, PR and marketing through social media (of which discussion forums are a big part) and the internet in general. Not to mention that general common sense suggests such things do matter, a lot, in these "always connected" times.

However, please don't take this thread off-topic by trying to refute what I say. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Edited May 25, 2013 by bluejay

[skankdelvar]

I do wonder if all of us are reading the same thread. Because - with a couple of exceptions - [i]no-one [/i]here is disputing Ric's right to clamp down on counterfeiters or makers who nick his intellectual rights. Good luck to him

The problem for Mr Hall is that he's targeting not the 'counterfeiters' but private individuals pursuing an entirely lawful course of action in selling something he let slip years ago. And the way he appears to be doing on this occasion is by picking smaller operations than his own and using the threat of legal action (which would probably fail) to instil a fear of accruing legal costs. This sort of thing is never going to go down well in communities of interest like BC. I just don't get why doesn't get this.

Thing is, we're bassists and we [i]like[/i] to like basses. If a bass mfr acts intemperately and has a proven history of acting intemperately, that's his reputational loss, not ours.

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1369488772' post='2089742']
It's a bit of fun basschat, that's all. It won't affect the sales of Rickenbackers one bit. [/quote]

True, it won't affect sales [i]much[/i]. But he's [i]definitely[/i] down one Ric 620. I might reconsider if he modifies his attitude, but he'll have to be quick, because I'm eyeing up a Gretsch atm. I suspect a few others might feel the same way. It all adds up, y'know.

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1369488772' post='2089742']
In fact, if it does [i]anything[/i] it will publish the name ... in an "any publicity is good publicity" kinda way.[/quote]

Tell that to Gerald Ratner, BP, Hoover, Toyota and they'll laugh in a sort of grim, resigned sort of way.

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1369488772' post='2089742']You have a good site Ped. No question ........... but whatever basschat says or does about any brand of bass, other than the real man in a shed operations, will have zero effect on anything.
[/quote]

If Basschat is so insignificant in the scheme of things, why is Mr Hall wasting his time on here? If he wants to protect his business there are better things to be doing. If he wants 'control' or uncritical adulation for his actions, products, company, he's got his own forum for that.
[color=#FFFFFF].[/color]

Edited May 25, 2013 by skankdelvar

[spongebob]

I do love Ric basses, and TBH the attitude of JH would not put me off.

I've got more issues with the years of shoddy QC to deal with first! [size=4] [/size]

.....and I do play one as well.... [size=4] [/size]

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1369489584' post='2089751']
Hmmm.... I do not agree one bit, and nor do my teachers/mentors at the business courses I'm taking in reputation management, PR and marketing through social media (of which discussion forums are a big part) and the internet in general. Not to mention that general common sense suggests such things do matter, a lot, in these "always connected" times.

However, please don't take this thread off-topic by trying to refute what I say. You have your opinion, I have mine.
[/quote]

We can disagree. I'm okay with that. I just disagree with you and that's alright. Forums are full of opinions - that's why we visit them.