Is this the 'key to keys'?

[spog]

Hi there
I was chatting to a guy the other day who assured me that one way to understand musical keys was as follows: Take , say, C major and write the scale down. You then list the seven modes (in their correct sequence) and then start each mode from its respective note in the original scale. This would give (in the example of C major) the mode of E Phyrigian staring on the third degree. I understand the concept of what a mode is, the 'swapping' of the notes from back to front, etc. But, whereas I can pick out certain things like the relative minor and so on (and understand the link to the major scale) what baffles me are things like the blues scale, melodic minors and so on. Are there blues and melodic minor keys to lear as well? Or is it just simper to accept that there are no easy ways into this?

[trent900]

Things like blues and melodic/harmonic minors aren't 'keys' as such, they're just different scales within a certain key.

Blues, if I remember right, is...err...root, flattened 3rd, fourth, flat 5th, 5th, minor 7th, root

So in C that's C Eb F F# G Bb C

Harmonic minor is the minor we normally use, so carrying on in the key of C:

Harmonic minor: C D Eb F G Ab B C

Melodic minor is odd as it depends whether you're going up or coming down:

C D Eb F G A B C Bb Ab A G F Eb D C.

I think that's all right. It does take practice, and there's only so far rules of remembering will take you. It's playing them over and over and over until your neighbours call the police that really gets the job done.

[foal30]

I think what you have stated covers Major Chord Function/Relationship

you say melodic minor. So thats flat3rd all other notes natural.

So;
Mode Chord
I Melodic Minor m(maj7) or m6
II Dorian b2 susb9
III Lydian Augment maj7 (#5)
IV Lydian Dominant 13(#11)
V Mixolydian b6 9(#5)
VI Locrian #2 mi9(b5)
VII Altered 7alt

that VII might be called Super Locrian in American language.

If we now go back to Major

I = maj7 or maj6
II = m7
III = m7
IV = maj7
V = 7
VI = m7
VII = diminished.


there is a lot to minor harmony or chord function
there is no easy way
but it is good for the brain and after a while it really helps your playing (improvising) and def helps you hear what others are playing more confidently.
If any of this is of any use I can type up some Minor Harmony "rules" if you lioe.

[foal30]

yeah, good point above
Melodic minor is as above for classical, as I wrote for Jazz.(no change descending)

[trent900]

[quote name='foal30' post='212174' date='Jun 3 2008, 11:05 PM']yeah, good point above
Melodic minor is as above for classical, as I wrote for Jazz.(no change descending)[/quote]

Is it? Well, I never knew that!

There we go - learn something new every day in this game, don't think you'll get it all first try!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='trent900' post='212168' date='Jun 3 2008, 11:02 PM']Harmonic minor is the minor we normally use, so carrying on in the key of C:[/quote]

Nearly.
The natural minor (A minor in the key of C) is the one in "normal" useage, the harmonic is an altered minor (raised 7th) in commercial music and represents the major third (would usually be minor third) of the dominant chord in a minor II V I progression.
I understand that classical harmony may differ from this, I am talking about this in a modal context as that is what the OP asked. There is no Harmonic minor in the modal expression of major harmony hence me referring to it as altered.

Edited June 4, 2008 by jakesbass

[The Funk]

[quote name='trent900' post='212168' date='Jun 3 2008, 11:02 PM']Harmonic minor is the minor we normally use, so carrying on in the key of C:

Harmonic minor: C D Eb F G Ab B C

Melodic minor is odd as it depends whether you're going up or coming down:

C D Eb F G A B C Bb Ab A G F Eb D C.[/quote]

Whoa, whoa, whoa there.

Harmonic minor is not the minor we normally use - unless we're in Nirvana.

There's a difference between Classical Melodic Minor (which you describe above) and Jazz Melodic Minor (which is the same coming down as it is going up). EDIT: Someone got there before me.

The Jazz Melodic Minor and the Harmonic Minor both have their own modes and harmony too. As do the Harmonic Major, Whole Tone and Diminished Scales. But that's basically it. Unless you want to get really far out.

Edited June 4, 2008 by The Funk

[The Funk]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='212250' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:05 AM']Nearly.
The natural minor (A minor in the key of C) is the one in "normal" useage[/quote]

In what context? In most things funk/rock things I play a Dorian instead of natural minor, ie. major 6th instead of minor 6th. Obviously I can hear when the people playing with me are playing a natural minor - my major 6th clashes horribly with their minor 6th and people give me funny looks.

[AussieBassman]

[quote name='The Funk' post='212252' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:19 AM']In what context? In most things funk/rock things I play a Dorian instead of natural minor, ie. major 6th instead of minor 6th. Obviously I can hear when the people playing with me are playing a natural minor - my major 6th clashes horribly with their minor 6th and people give me funny looks.[/quote]
who's "correct"?

[Cantdosleepy]

Just play F. With a muddy enough tone, no-ones know what note you're going for.

[niceguyhomer]

I was learning to read music but I think I'll give up before my head explodes. :wacko:

[The Funk]

Very interesting post.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='The Funk' post='212252' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:19 AM']In what context? In most things funk/rock things I play a Dorian instead of natural minor, ie. major 6th instead of minor 6th. Obviously I can hear when the people playing with me are playing a natural minor - my major 6th clashes horribly with their minor 6th and people give me funny looks.[/quote]

Well you kind of said it yourself, the major 6 will clash with the key signature when dorian is used instead of the natural minor. So to answer your question the "context" is the key.
I'm at pains to say though, I don't describe things as right or wrong, rather strong or weak relationships. You can train your ears to accept anything, with qualities of relationships ranging from sweet and consonant to angular and dissonant and everything inbetween.

One interesting example of what people will accept in terms of angular harmony is to listen to a soundtrack from a horror or thriller film, you will hear the composer using all sorts of dischordant harmony devices to provoke a response from the audience, and it works, it's interesting to me that in a film score people accept lots of weird stuff due to the context, but if you take away the visual they call it nonsense. It indicates a lack of understanding to my mind.

Anyway to answer another question.
The "correct" (in theory terms) answer was mine. But as Dlloyd said in aural terms everyone is correct.

Edited June 4, 2008 by jakesbass

[Dood]

Excellent post.. Wrong Forum....I will move it...

[spog]

Many thanks
The minor harmony rules would be much appreciated.

[quote name='foal30' post='212169' date='Jun 3 2008, 11:02 PM']I think what you have stated covers Major Chord Function/Relationship

you say melodic minor. So thats flat3rd all other notes natural.

So;
Mode Chord
I Melodic Minor m(maj7) or m6
II Dorian b2 susb9
III Lydian Augment maj7 (#5)
IV Lydian Dominant 13(#11)
V Mixolydian b6 9(#5)
VI Locrian #2 mi9(b5)
VII Altered 7alt

that VII might be called Super Locrian in American language.

If we now go back to Major

I = maj7 or maj6
II = m7
III = m7
IV = maj7
V = 7
VI = m7
VII = diminished.


there is a lot to minor harmony or chord function
there is no easy way
but it is good for the brain and after a while it really helps your playing (improvising) and def helps you hear what others are playing more confidently.
If any of this is of any use I can type up some Minor Harmony "rules" if you lioe.[/quote]

[spog]

That actually brings me on to my next erm....'post'? Which was to ask how many 'sets' of modes there are out there. Surely there must come a point where many of these sequences just resemble tuneless dirges? Call me a (cage-rattling) philistine, but I was listening to some Charlie Mingus the other day and it sounded to me like someone who couldn't play [i]at all having a bit of larf after a bottle of cheap whisky....

[quote name='The Funk' post='212251' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:14 AM']Whoa, whoa, whoa there.

Harmonic minor is not the minor we normally use - unless we're in Nirvana.

There's a difference between Classical Melodic Minor (which you describe above) and Jazz Melodic Minor (which is the same coming down as it is going up). EDIT: Someone got there before me.

The Jazz Melodic Minor and the Harmonic Minor both have their own modes and harmony too. As do the Harmonic Major, Whole Tone and Diminished Scales. But that's basically it. Unless you want to get really far out.[/quote]

[spog]

Cor lummee!
So, it would appear that there are only modes for the 12 Minor and Major keys. And that 'all the other stuff' (Blues, Jazz, and all the assorted 'other' minors) are scales that are 'tweaked' individually? Elsewhere on this forum somebody commented that the other scales (such as the whole-tone, for example) DO also have their respective modes. Sound like we're looking at more scales than a prize-winning pike!!! By the way, please forgive my layman's-speak, I'm just trying to get an overview of just how complicated this is likely to become before I leap on in.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='212250' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:05 AM']Nearly.
The natural minor (A minor in the key of C) is the one in "normal" useage, the harmonic is an altered minor (raised 7th) in commercial music and represents the major third (would usually be minor third) of the dominant chord in a minor II V I progression.
I understand that classical harmony may differ from this, I am talking about this in a modal context as that is what the OP asked. There is no Harmonic minor in the modal expression of major harmony hence me referring to it as altered.[/quote]

[Jobiebass]

I just learn the shape, find it easyer then saying Pentatonic blah blah, to me its just the minor scale with some missing, just the root, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th.
or how I like to see it is how my fingers would be using one finger per fret.

E: 1,4
A: 1,3
D: 1,3

Blues is just an added flat 5th

so Root, 3rd, 4th, flat 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th
or
E: 1,4
A: 1,2,3
D: 1,3

then once you know the shape you can play it anywhere practically, untill you wanna play open E scales or F magor on the E string etc.

Thats how im learning anyways, only just starting to learn the therory behind it but I have a great teacher and learning a lot. Really puts things into context why ive been playing in a certain way. Suppose it helps that I can already play pretty competently.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Jobiebass' post='216274' date='Jun 10 2008, 04:03 PM']I just learn the shape, find it easyer then saying Pentatonic blah blah, to me its just the minor scale with some missing, just the root, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th.
or how I like to see it is how my fingers would be using one finger per fret.[/quote]
As a tutor I am a strong advocate of discovering which means individual students use best to absorb things, so your way of working it out for yourself, the way you see it, is very good in my opinion and I would encourage others to do the same. From that perspective you can achieve good usage of the material and in time you will absorb the terminology too.

[Jobiebass]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='216551' date='Jun 11 2008, 12:49 AM']As a tutor I am a strong advocate of discovering which means individual students use best to absorb things, so your way of working it out for yourself, the way you see it, is very good in my opinion and I would encourage others to do the same. From that perspective you can achieve good usage of the material and in time you will absorb the terminology too.[/quote]

Its the terminology that gets me every time. doesnt help im used to calling notes quarter notes or full notes etc, which is the american way. the only quavers I know are cheesy crisps . he'll get me to do a triad, then ask me to do the triad with the octive and gives it a crazy name I can never remember. why not just say "triad with octive" lol. Glad im starting to learn though.
At least I can argue with my ex miss's about music now cause she used to baffle me with all this crap cause shes sh*t hot on a piano + plays Violin in a massive orchestra.