Classic Albums - Zappa Apostrophe - Great Documentary

[Conan]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c[/url]

[Lowender]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370354190' post='2099581']
In essence, you think most of Zappa's music is very difficult but unmusical, influenced little, and was nothing new or innovative, whereas the Beatles were total gamechanging geniuses who made pop music into high art and influenced everyone, even if they are not aware of it. That and the fact that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is WRONG.
[/quote]

Whatever you say bro.

[BetaFunk]

I'm really fed up trying to explaining this High Art lark to people. I was talking to a couple of blokes down my local pub and they thought that Musique Concrete was listening to Westlife while loaded a cement mixer.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370356197' post='2099623']


Whatever you say bro.
[/quote]
Gosh, you really are highly unreasonable aren't you.

[jonsmith]

EDIT to say what I originally wanted to say - thanks to xilddx for the original post - I hadn't actually seen that before.

Alice Cooper says in the documentary something along the lines of "Frank said 'there will be people that get it & people that don't'", and I suppose that's what's the deal we're dealin' in.

I know quite a few people who dismiss FZ outright (not saying anyone here actually has), which I always find quite puzzling given the huge diversity of his output over the years. It's hard to imagine that they couldn't find anything in that catalogue that clicked with them.

I go through phases as to what eras I prefer, but '73-76 is particularly appealing to me at the moment, along with a lot of the stuff from the last tour. I find some of the orchestral stuff a bit difficult to stomach sometimes, but other pieces I really enjoy. I must admit that the disc concerned mainly with adult entertainment activities from the YCDTOSA series came on the network player the other day and I did find its constant schoolboy-style humour a bit wearing eventually. Still, I couldn't help smiling at the memory of when - many years ago - I accidentally left a mix tape containing Stick It Out playing in the office while I popped out for something. Quite a few puzzled expressions when I returned just as it got to the 'sofa' section. I don't think anyone ever thought of me in quite the same way afterwards.

I think FZ definitely made an enormous contribution to the world of music, opening people's minds to other styles & disciplines. Combining wit, humour and insight in his lyrics with extraordinary musical dexterity. And if you don't like the lyrics, there's plenty of fine instrumental stuff to check out. There's some real beauty in there too - Water Melon In Easter Hay still gets me every time.

Edited June 4, 2013 by jonsmith

[BetaFunk]

Going off the thread slightly i had a flashback to when The Beatles were filming down the road where i went to school in the 60s. I can still remember the local coal delivery man discussing with the milkman what a bleedin' row he thought they were while an old old dear stood on her doorstep with her hair in rollers she carefully flicked the ash off her woodbine and shouted 'shut yer gob, it's high art'. Never forget that. Wonderful memories.

Edited June 4, 2013 by BetaFunk

[BassTractor]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370353585' post='2099566']
Bass Tractor. You're taking it personally -- exactly what i was trying not to do. I never said his music wasn't structured. So your entire argument is based on misinformation. I made the point earlier about scoring a cat walking across a piano would be difficult, but it'll still sound like a cat walking across a piano. Oh well. I guess I didn't state my case very well. Or maybe it was stated too well.
I'm not sure.
[/quote]


Thanks, Lowender, for a measured response.
It's much appreciated.

I don't think I'm taking it personally at all. I am not a part in the discussion about Zappa vs. Beatles, and your calling Zappa's music names does not touch me.
I'm just calling you out on net forum behaviour that I think does damage to BC.

Must admit that when I wrote the word "structure", I knew very well that you could decide to call me out on it (though that was not my aim with writing it anyway). The point though was never that you litterally (literally?) said so much, as much as that your denigrating remarks more than hinted at it - whether you meant to or not.
See, good music by definition is structured music, whilst structure in music does not mean the music must be good. Then, when you regard The Beatles' music as high art, your evaluation [b]must[/b] contain an understanding of the quality of the music's structure.

So: I don't think you stated your case either badly or too well, as I think what you stated was a clear representation of your case.
The error however lies in the case itself, as, inherently, it partly is based on (ac)countable entities and partly on denying same.


best,
bert

[Lowender]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1370365860' post='2099815']
Thanks, Lowender, for a measured response.
It's much appreciated.

I don't think I'm taking it personally at all. I am not a part in the discussion about Zappa vs. Beatles, and your calling Zappa's music names does not touch me.
I'm just calling you out on net forum behaviour that I think does damage to BC.

Must admit that when I wrote the word "structure", I knew very well that you could decide to call me out on it (though that was not my aim with writing it anyway). The point though was never that you litterally (literally?) said so much, as much as that your denigrating remarks more than hinted at it - whether you meant to or not.
See, good music by definition is structured music, whilst structure in music does not mean the music must be good. Then, when you regard The Beatles' music as high art, your evaluation [b]must[/b] contain an understanding of the quality of the music's structure.

So: I don't think you stated your case either badly or too well, as I think what you stated was a clear representation of your case.
The error however lies in the case itself, as, inherently, it partly is based on (ac)countable entities and partly on denying same.


best,
bert
[/quote]

Fair enough. All good.

[RhysP]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370336914' post='2099173']
I wish there was a well loaded bong near you, and that you would take advantage of its proximity.
[/quote]
f***ing hell that made me laugh out loud!
Funny is even funnier when you're off your tits on prescription painkillers.

[Dave Vader]

watermelon in easter hay is sobbingly brilliant.
If it doesn't make you cry you are wired wrong

I am a bit drunk, so this is affecting my judgement, sorry.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1370381856' post='2100195']
watermelon in easter hay is sobbingly brilliant.
If it doesn't make you cry you are wired wrong
[/quote]
I was playing "Watermelon in Easter Hay" on the stereo in the music library where I used to work one day many years ago.

Somebody came in & said "That's nice, is it Dire Straits?"

That was the day I lost all faith in humanity.

[Dave Vader]

w***ers, all of them

[peteb]

Without wishing to rehash the Fab 4 thread again, to me the most important thing about the Beatles was the influence that they had on popular culture beyond that of pop music! Frank Zappa (or any other artist) will never have that level of significance and therefore can't really be compared!

FWIW, I quite like FZ and have a few albums / used to have a live video, but I'm not really a massive fan. I actually like the humorous stuff and the sheer quality of the bands he employed - their ability to turn on a musical sixpence could be quite breathtaking at times! However, much of the instrumental stuff I've heard doesn't really do it for me, not that I've heard it all by any means...

Edited June 4, 2013 by peteb

[steve-bbb]

there is an obvious paradox here that makes this whole argument almost inevitably subjective

there are very very few artists with such a massive and diverse catalogue of music

anybody's comments will be subjective in as much as they will only relate to the FZ material they are familiar with

anybody on here (or anywhere) claiming they were sufficiently familiar with his entire catalogue to make musicologically sound and objective opinions is probably some sort of musical crazy cat lady - ive been listening to FZ for the last 37 years and I would say i know about 25% of it very well - i would estimate about 50% of the catalogue i have never listened to

oh and he's such a beatles rip-off isnt he? look what he did with the sgt pepper/only in it for the money album covers

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1370413133' post='2100374']
there is an obvious paradox here that makes this whole argument almost inevitably subjective

there are very very few artists with such a massive and diverse catalogue of music

anybody's comments will be subjective in as much as they will only relate to the FZ material they are familiar with

anybody on here (or anywhere) claiming they were sufficiently familiar with his entire catalogue to make musicologically sound and objective opinions is probably some sort of musical crazy cat lady - ive been listening to FZ for the last 37 years and I would say i know about 25% of it very well - i would estimate about 50% of the catalogue i have never listened to

oh and he's such a beatles rip-off isnt he? look what he did with the sgt pepper/only in it for the money album covers
[/quote]
Of course the Zappa back catalogue is enormous but the official albums up to his death totalled around 45. I have over 35 of these and have listened to most of the others. Listening to 45 LPs over a period of 27 years isn't difficult. Most peoples opinions are based on these 40+ LPs and not the numerous posthumous releases so that whittles it down the essential albums.
The Beatles mention is interesting though as i suppose we are all familiar with most of the Fab Four's recorded work so everyone can comment on it but if you've listened to a lot of Zappa LPs you obviously liked it in the first place. You wouldn't have heard much (if any) of Zappa's music on the radio like you would have The Beatles so you would had to make an effort to seek FZ's music out.

[xilddx]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1370428215' post='2100593']

[b]The Beatles mention is interesting though as i suppose we are all familiar with most of the Fab Four's recorded work so everyone can comment on it [/b]but if you've listened to a lot of Zappa LPs you obviously liked it in the first place. You wouldn't have heard much (if any) of Zappa's music on the radio like you would have The Beatles so you would had to make an effort to seek FZ's music out.
[/quote]
This is an assumption a lot of people seem to make. I have only really heard a few of their early songs, Help, Day Tripper, etc. and a few later obvious ones, Hey Jude, Yellow Sub, etc. Same deal with the Stones. I was never interested in either of those bands and they have never been a musical influence. I imagine there are plenty of people like me on here.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370431823' post='2100661']
This is an assumption a lot of people seem to make. I have only really heard a few of their early songs, Help, Day Tripper, etc. and a few later obvious ones, Hey Jude, Yellow Sub, etc. Same deal with the Stones. I was never interested in either of those bands and they have never been a musical influence. I imagine there are plenty of people like me on here.
[/quote]
Yes but surely many more people must have heard Beatles songs than Zappas. Most people can comment on a Beatles song but i doubt that many can say much about Zappa. I have never been that keen on Beethoven but i certainly hear more of his music on radio and TV than i ever do of Varese who i really am interested in.

[RhysP]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370431823' post='2100661']
This is an assumption a lot of people seem to make. I have only really heard a few of their early songs, Help, Day Tripper, etc. and a few later obvious ones, Hey Jude, Yellow Sub, etc. Same deal with the Stones. I was never interested in either of those bands and they have never been a musical influence. I imagine there are plenty of people like me on here.
[/quote]
I'm one of them.

I have never listened to a single Stones album & the only two Beatles albums I've heard are Revolver & Rubber Soul.

I'd have to give The Beatles some credit as far as influences go though as the first bass line I ever learned was from Rubber Soul.
They've also indirectly influenced me as they have been a big influence on people I am a fan of such as Todd Rundgren & Cheap Trick.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1370433610' post='2100704']
I'm one of them.

I have never listened to a single Stones album & the only two Beatles albums I've heard are Revolver & Rubber Soul.

I'd have to give The Beatles some credit as far as influences go though as the first bass line I ever learned was from Rubber Soul.
They've also indirectly influenced me as they have been a big influence on people I am a fan of such as Todd Rundgren & Cheap Trick.
[/quote]
My point was that Beatles songs are heard in all sorts of places and you're not likely ever to hear FZ. Like it or not the Fab Fours songs are much more popular than FZs.
Funnily enough i have most Todd Rundgren LPs but couldn't tell you one single Cheap Trick song. Just goes to show that you can't know all the stuff that's out there.

P.S. Having been born in the 50s i couldn't avoid the Fab Four but you could have easily avoided FZ's music.

Edited June 5, 2013 by BetaFunk

[Wil]

I hadnt listened to any Beatles or Zappa records until about 3 years ago. I went through the entire Beatles back catalogue and about 20 Zappa records based on reviews... I have to say, IMO the Beatles are more popular for a very good reason. Zappa was great, he pushed boundaries and also created some great music along the way, but you wont find me singing his songs in the shower, and sometimes that's all I really care about.

[RhysP]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1370434647' post='2100727']
Like it or not the Fab Fours songs are much more popular than FZs.
[/quote]
Without a doubt.
I used to listen to quite a lot of Zappa when I was younger but he's one of those people that I find I just cannot listen to anymore for some reason. Same with Yes - I used to love them but now there's something about their music I just don't get on with.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1370434841' post='2100734']
I hadnt listened to any Beatles or Zappa records until about 3 years ago. I went through the entire Beatles back catalogue and about 20 Zappa records based on reviews... I have to say, IMO the Beatles are more popular for a very good reason. Zappa was great, he pushed boundaries and also created some great music along the way, but you wont find me singing his songs in the shower, and sometimes that's all I really care about.
[/quote]
To me the Beatles records are much more sing a long pop toons but i often sing 'Hungry Freaks Daddy' and 'How Could I Be Such A Fool' in the shower.

[Wil]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1370435102' post='2100737']
To me the Beatles records are much more sing a long pop toons but i often sing 'Hungry Freaks Daddy' and 'How Could I Be Such A Fool' in the shower.
[/quote]

Oh, I agree absolutely, but I'm sure for a lot of Zappa fans they aren't quite pushing the musical envelope in the same way at least.

I have to admit, I have sung Concentration Moon and What's the Ugliest Part of Your Body quite a lot in the shower, come to think of it.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1370434841' post='2100734']
I hadnt listened to any Beatles or Zappa records until about 3 years ago. I went through the entire Beatles back catalogue and about 20 Zappa records based on reviews... I have to say, IMO the Beatles are more popular for a very good reason. Zappa was great, he pushed boundaries and also created some great music along the way, [b]but you wont find me singing his songs in the shower, and sometimes that's all I really care about.[/b]
[/quote]

I do the washing up and cooking with headphones on, I was singing along with a bunch of Zappa numbers last night, there are plenty you can sing along with, albeit you have to have a decent memory for lyrics, they're not exactly 'Love love me do, you know I love you, so pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease love me do.

[Wil]

Yeah, on second thoughts I have definitely sung Zappa tunes in the shower. I also forgot about "Doo-oor-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-een, don't make me wait, till tomorroooooooooow... oh no"