Ideal bridge saddle shape

[KingBollock]

Going to be making my own bridge saddles soon. I shall be using stainless steel bars (I have some with a large enough diameter to cut into a square block). I have three shapes in my head and would like to know which would be the best. The ones I am replacing are just squared off blocks with a little groove for the string. But a lot of bridge saddles are round barrels. The other idea is to have a mirror image of the nut, so the back of the bridge arcs down with the angle of the string but the front has a steep drop off.
I sort of have it in my head that a round saddle would interfere with the vibration of the string, but, considering they're so popular, I imagine that the movement of the string at that point isn't enough to be interfered with?

So, does anyone know what, technically or in practise, should be the best option?

[Bloodaxe]

I'm not an engineer, nor have I ever played one on TV… but I'd have thought that as near as you can get to point contact would be the most desirable.

You could get a good knife edge with stainless, but that would likely put a lot of stress on the string at the witness point.

If you have enough bar, why not try a few shapes?

This is a dimensioned drawing of an Aria SB bridge & saddles if it's any use:— https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8453031/SB-1000%20bridge.pdf

P.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Bloodaxe

[charic]

You could try going for a cross between the square and barrel?

Like an elongated semicircle, flat at the bottom and curved at the top

[ikay]

The last two posts in this thread are interesting re ideal design for a string anchor point (which apparently isn't a traditional saddle):
[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f18/bridge-saddle-design-question-26739/"]http://www.talkbass....question-26739/[/url]

This link may be more useful:
[url="http://www.esomogyi.com/principles.html"]http://www.esomogyi....principles.html[/url]

It refers to acoustic guitar design but the principle of energy transference from the saddle is the same. See the third diagram down. This shows how the shape on the left with a vertical witness point followed by a broader rounded surface provides better string contact and more efficient energy transfer.

For example, something like the pic below (KSM Foundation bridge) - [url="http://www.ksmguitars.com/bridge.html"]http://www.ksmguitars.com/bridge.html[/url]

[attachment=136252:KSM Foundation Bridge.jpg]

Through body stringing with this sort of design may provide even greater saddle contact and energy transference.

Edited June 4, 2013 by ikay

[KingBollock]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1370330578' post='2099084']
The last two posts in this thread are interesting re ideal design for a string anchor point (which apparently isn't a traditional saddle):
[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f18/bridge-saddle-design-question-26739/"]http://www.talkbass....question-26739/[/url]

This link may be more useful:
[url="http://www.esomogyi.com/principles.html"]http://www.esomogyi....principles.html[/url]

It refers to acoustic guitar design but the principle of energy transference from the saddle is the same. See the third diagram down. This shows how the shape on the left with a vertical witness point followed by a broader rounded surface provides better string contact and more efficient energy transfer.

For example, something like the pic below (KSM Foundation bridge) - [url="http://www.ksmguitars.com/bridge.html"]http://www.ksmguitars.com/bridge.html[/url]

[attachment=136252:KSM Foundation Bridge.jpg]

Through body stringing with this sort of design may provide even greater saddle contact and energy transference.
[/quote]
Thank you. The left hand side of figure 3 is what I was trying to describe as a mirror to the nut, a nut being the same shape but the other way 'round.

Unfortunately, the problem that I have with my bridge is that it is currently too tall and I am making saddles half the height of its existing ones instead of sinking the bridge into the bass body, something I wouldn't have the confidence to do myself. The way I am going about it makes the whole process easily reversible. But it also means that the break angle over the bridge will be shallow. Though I have layers with it for a year, with a temporary knocked solution, without problems.

I shall be replacing the nut, too, with the same material, so that, along with the stainless steel frets, all contact points while playing will be of the same material. Though, I have to admit, it is mostly for aesthetic reasons, everything else (apart from the fret markers, which I will be getting rid of all but the twelfth fret pair) on the bass is black.

[ikay]

If it's a bolt on, how about shimming the neck to accommodate the taller bridge? Can you post a pic of the bridge you'll be using.

[KingBollock]

It's a neck through. The problem is that there is no space between the neck/body and the underside of the fretboard, and the fretboard is standard thickness. If you see what I mean.

I posted about the problem here:

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/203694-bridge-parts/

The fretboard





It's just the insert I am going onto be making, to go into the bottom part.


In this one you can see the E string with all the parts present and the other strings how I've been playing it for the last year.

I'll be making the saddle half the height of the original and grinding about 1.5mm off the bottom of the slider part. I know I could just grind down the saddle instead of making new ones, but making new ones will be more fun.

Edited June 4, 2013 by KingBollock

[ikay]

Hmm, in the bottom pic it looks like you've dispensed wiith the sled completely for the G, D an A strings, or am I not seeing that properly?

Assuming the action will be low enough with the sled and a lower profile insert, then I'd just go with your 'reverse nut' shape.

Or how about a sort of inverted 'L' with a sloping tail to maximise string contact like this:

[attachment=136287:saddle shape.jpg]

Edited June 4, 2013 by ikay

[iiipopes]

In St. Louis, Missouri, USA, there is a large arch that is a tourist attraction. But it is made in the same way the ideal bridge saddle should be, with a rounded top and straighter sides. This catenary form is the best way to take the force of the string and transmit it downwards, while staying stable in all directions. Here is a link to the math explaining why: [url="http://www.ams.org/notices/201002/rtx100200220p.pdf"]http://www.ams.org/n...x100200220p.pdf[/url]

Edited June 4, 2013 by iiipopes

[KingBollock]

Yup, I've been playing it without any of the sleds for the last year, since I got it. But the saddles aren't very thick and are only resting on the tips of the elevation adjustment bolts, so they're not hugely stable (though, to be honest, this hasn't been a problem) and there's nothing holding them in place except the strings. So it would be useful to be able to use the sleds again.

I like your L shape idea but I don't think there is going to be enough material showing above the sled to do it. The sled, while it looks flat from the side on picture, actually has a groove that, if I get the angle on the saddle right, would serve to do the same.

I might have a crack at making something like a single piece saddle that I could shape like the one in the figure 3 pic you linked to and have it so it locks in place and is height adjustable. I don't have a milling machine, so I don't know how feasible that might be.

[Mr. Foxen]

All the nut geometry stuff here applies equally to the bridge saddles: http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rout_serv/nut_geom.htm

[KingBollock]

Thanks, good to retread that before I make a start. It was actually that site that gave me the idea of using stainless steel in the first place.