Left hand thumb/wrist position

[Dezdoghound]

Hello, this has probably been done before on here but anyway.
I've read/watched different things about left hand technique, and I was wondering if there was any conclusive answer, as some say that having the thumb paralell to the neck is good, some say more perpendicular, some say it doesn't matter.
Out of these two positions, which would you say was best?

Position 1


Position 2

[PaulWarning]

I hook mine over to deaden the e string so it's damped for when I hit it by accident, except when I'm supposed to be playing it of course.

[ubassman]

110% no brainer - no 2 !!

( 1 is going to limit your ability to play fast, clear notes, and is a guaranteed way to get a strain injury ! )

[Coilte]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1370351080' post='2099491']
110% no brainer - no 2 !!

( 1 is going to limit your ability to play fast, clear notes, and is a guaranteed way to get a strain injury ! )
[/quote]


IMO it is the other way around. I agree completely that #1 is going to limit your playing ability. However (again IMO) it will not cause injury.

In picture #2, the thumb is behind the middle finger. This causes a narrowing of the carpel tunnel, through which the tendons pass. With the tunnel being narrowed like this, the tendons will rub against it, rather than gliding smoothly through it. Over time this can lead to injury problems. The best thing is to simply let the thumb naturally go where it needs or wants to.

This clip explains things very well :

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM-rkoy2H8I"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM-rkoy2H8I[/url]

[GuitarTart]

Thanks for that. I noticed a couple of weeks ago when I was familiarising myself with my new fretless that my thumb seemed to be floating and hardly ever touched the back of the neck. I tried forcing myself to use my regular thumb-at-the-back guitar grip but it felt wrong and uncomfortable. I decided to concentrate on what was happening at the front of the neck and let the thumb look after itself. Problem solved. When I look, I see that my thumb is usually pointing at the headstock but is ready to apply pressure if needed.
Thanks again for the video.

Myk

[ubassman]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1370370284' post='2099897']
In picture #2, the thumb is behind the middle finger. This causes a narrowing of the carpel tunnel, through which the tendons pass. With the tunnel being narrowed like this, the tendons will rub against it, rather than gliding smoothly through it. Over time this can lead to injury problems. The best thing is to simply let the thumb naturally go where it needs or wants to.

[/quote]

...dont know if you have read [url="http://www.drkertz.com/bassistguide.html"]The bassist's Guide to Injury Management , Prevention and Better Health[/url] - it not, its well worth the investment . The book is by Dr Randall Kertz D.C. a chiropractic physician and also a bassist. Chapter 2 deals with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome amongst other bassist related injuries and problems . It then goes on to explain what you need to do to avoid injury . At Chapter 3 - page 38 to be precise you'll see a photo almost identical to 2 and an explanation as to why the thumb behind the middle finger is the best way to avoid injury!! Its what I have always been taught as a trained classical guitarist and double bassist ( and electric bassist ) and so squares comfortably with personal experience.

With authoritative testimonials from Victor Wooten, Steve Bailey, Lemmy , Pino Palladino, Esperanza Spalding ( to name but a few - Dr Kertz has treated them all ) - its an essential read.

[b]"How injury occurs and how to minimise it is always an interesting subject to me. Thats why I love the idea of this book and am honoured to be part of it. Thank you Dr Kertz" [/b]- Victor Wooten

[Bloodaxe]

No. 1 for the low end & No. 2 if I go further up into the Forbidden Zone. No stranger to using the thumb as a damper either.

There's no law that says you have to keep your left hand in a fixed position. As the neck's geometry changes throughout its length, so should your hand's.

Exhibit A:—

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3f2soptQbI[/media]

I hope no-one's seriously suggesting that Duck Dunn was wrong

I also recommend a perusal of this:—

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRkSsapYYsA[/media]

P.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' timestamp='1370374837' post='2100016']

I also recommend a perusal of this:—

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRkSsapYYsA[/media]

P.
[/quote]
My hand seems to be rather different to his.

[ubassman]

The video is interesting and the guy is right in that the low cocked wrist he demonstrats is asking for problems ( ...but good luck if you play with a high elbow like that )!

The more technically advanced players out there will generally keep the elbow low, and the instrument hung higher as it straightens out the wrist and as a general rule of thumb (- no pun intended !) the thumb should always be behind the middle finger so that the muscle at the bass of the thumb is not stretched and the fingers can move freely.

To explain what I mean try playing 'air bass' wiggling your fingers as fast as you can with the thumb pointing horizontally towards the headstock. Try again with the thumb pointing vertically upwards - should be much faster that way !

[Coilte]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1370373815' post='2099996']
...dont know if you have read [url="http://www.drkertz.com/bassistguide.html"]The bassist's Guide to Injury Management , Prevention and Better Health[/url] - it not, its well worth the investment . The book is by Dr Randall Kertz D.C. a chiropractic physician and also a bassist. Chapter 2 deals with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome amongst other bassist related injuries and problems . It then goes on to explain what you need to do to avoid injury . At Chapter 3 - page 38 to be precise you'll see a photo almost identical to 2 and an explanation as to why the thumb behind the middle finger is the best way to avoid injury!! Its what I have always been taught as a trained classical guitarist and double bassist ( and electric bassist ) and so squares comfortably with personal experience.

With authoritative testimonials from Victor Wooten, Steve Bailey, Lemmy , Pino Palladino, Esperanza Spalding ( to name but a few - Dr Kertz has treated them all ) - its an essential read.

[b]"How injury occurs and how to minimise it is always an interesting subject to me. Thats why I love the idea of this book and am honoured to be part of it. Thank you Dr Kertz" [/b]- Victor Wooten
[/quote]


No, I have not read the book, so have no idea of the explanation given as to why he endorses this technique.

On the subject of famous bassists and where they place (and dont..) their thumb. Here is one who could be considered famous, and who was playing bass when the likes of Wooten was still in nappies. Take a look at his fretting hand thumb. Decades of playing this way does not seem to have done him any harm. Another famous bassist, a certain Mr Jack Bruce also has a similar technique.


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFcsEtFIKA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFcsEtFIKA[/url]

[ubassman]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' timestamp='1370374837' post='2100016']
There's no law that says you have to keep your left hand in a fixed position. As the neck's geometry changes throughout its length, so should your hand's.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRkSsapYYsA[/media]

[/quote]

Agreed ..interesting vid and +1 on the idea of finding neutral position - I reckon its probably different for everyone because the arm has 3 pivots the shoulder, elbow and wrist and all the bones are different lengths . I can get into my comfortable neutral position with my thumb behind second finger low down by simply adjusting my arm into a natural curve which comes in at maybe 75 degrees to the neck. Personally I keep my thumb in the same orientation to the fingers as the hand just glides up and down without ever needing to change shape - works for me but completely respect that others have different techniques and ideas.

Edited June 4, 2013 by ubassman

[ubassman]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1370377918' post='2100098']
No, I have not read the book, so have no idea of the explanation given as to why he endorses this technique.

On the subject of famous bassists and where they place (and dont..) their thumb. Here is one who could be considered famous, and who was playing bass when the likes of Wooten was still in nappies. Take a look at his fretting hand thumb. Decades of playing this way does not seem to have done him any harm. Another famous bassist, a certain Mr Jack Bruce also has a similar technique.

[/quote]

His explanation is based on biomechanics and over 20 years of treating bassists in the hope that he will eventually do himself out of a job ! He is pretty passionate about helping the bassist community of which he is one and I don't think the book is published as a way to cause pain or inflict injury on us lot!

There are probably no absolutes as we are all different shapes and sizes . All we can ever talk about is our personal experience. I have played with thumb behind 2nd finger for 40 years and never had an injury - works for me playing fast jazz passages as well as double bass in the orchestra where i have to move quickly.

[Coilte]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1370378994' post='2100123']
There are probably no absolutes as we are all different shapes and sizes .
[/quote]

Fair enough. I was merely try to refute your comment about it being a "no brain-er" to always play with the thumb behind the middle finger, and that playing with the "hitch hiker's" thumb will cause injury.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1370378026' post='2100101']Agreed ..interesting vid and +1 on the idea of finding neutral position - I reckon its probably different for everyone because the arm has 3 pivots the shoulder, elbow and wrist and all the bones are different lengths . I can get into my comfortable neutral position with my thumb behind second finger low down by simply adjusting my arm into a natural curve which comes in at maybe 75 degrees to the neck. Personally I keep my thumb in the same orientation to the fingers as the hand just glides up and down without ever needing to change shape - works for me but completely respect that others have different techniques and ideas.[/quote]

That's exactly why I'm an avid supporter of the 'neutral position' - it's the only technique I'm aware of that automatically allows for differing body geometry between players. My neutral position results in my left thumb pointing to my left almost parallel to the neck in the lower registers but it shifts inwards as I move up. That's the way I'm built. Your geometry permits a different approach. I daresay that Pino's neutral stance will be somewhat different on account of him being eleventeen feet tall, as will Rob Trujillo's (he looks as if he works out, so his upper body geometry is different again).

The neutral stance also impacts on the old 'what's the best strap height' discussion. In some/many cases it's possible to achieve a neutral position whilst sitting that translates seamlessly into a standing position with no strap adjustment. Not for me though - I can only play for 5-10 mins maximum sat down before my right wrist starts hurting. That couple of inches difference in strap length is the difference between CTS in 15 mins or 30 years of grief-free playing.

There is [u]no[/u] 'one size fits all' approach, it's a question of experimentation until you find what works best for you.

Incidentally, this clip featuring one of his patients seems to contradict Dr. Kertz's assertion:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyuDyWc09G8[/media]

Note two things… Lemmy's thumb is nearly always visible, but (crucially) there's an almost straight line from his elbow through his wrist that suggests he's rather more relaxed than the pace of the tune might suggest.

Pete.

[ubassman]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' timestamp='1370380422' post='2100154']

Incidentally, this clip featuring one of his patients seems to contradict Dr. Kertz's assertion:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyuDyWc09G8[/media]

Note two things… Lemmy's thumb is nearly always visible, but (crucially) there's an almost straight line from his elbow through his wrist that suggests he's rather more relaxed than the pace of the tune might suggest.

Pete.
[/quote]
...I think it agrees with Dr Kertz - the thumb isn't out in the "hitch hikers" position

[louisthebass]

IMO position 2 is more economical than 1. I find that the thumb (sort of) lines up between the first and second fingers when I'm fretting.

You'll get a lot of different opinions about where to place your thumb (when playing) on here - the most important thing is do what's most comfortable for [b]you[/b] without hurting yourself.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1370381488' post='2100185']
...I think it agrees with Dr Kertz - the thumb isn't out in the "hitch hikers" position [/quote]

Doh! I take your point. I read Dr K's stance as meaning 'the "Claw" is Good', a tactic 'ol Snaggletooth utterly fails to embrace.

I still think that the straight path from elbow through the wrist is the way to go, the thumb can land where it wishes according to the individual's joint/bone structure. Same goes for the right hand (exactly as espoused by Fergie Fulton in the vid in post 4).

There are a few more vids by Fergie on his website here: http://fergiefulton.co.uk/health.php

P.

[PaulWarning]

of course it all depends on what position the bass is in, I have mine low (avitar) so my thump is always hooked over, which is the most comfortable position for me and that's what bassists should do, position the thumb where it feels most natural

[Coilte]

[quote name='louisthebass' timestamp='1370382419' post='2100205']
the most important thing is do what's most comfortable for [b]you[/b] without hurting yourself.
[/quote]

Strictly speaking, this is good advice. Unfortunately, with the likes of carpel tunnel syndrome, it can take years to manifest itself.
So while it may not be hurting you [b]now,[/b] it has the potential to to be a major problem at a later time. Same goes for RSI. It is not called [b]Repetitive [/b]strain injury for nothing. With this, you dont notice pain at the start.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Coilte

[ubassman]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1370422924' post='2100493']
Strictly speaking, this is good advice. Unfortunately, with the likes of carpel tunnel syndrome, it can take years to manifest itself.
So while it may not be hurting you [b]now,[/b] it has the potential to to be a major problem at a later time. Same goes for RSI. It is not called [b]Repetitive [/b]strain injury for nothing. With this, you dont notice pain at the start.
[/quote]

+1

[Dezdoghound]

Hey thanks everybody! You sure have a lot of knowledge