Sandberg basses – the European equivilant of a a Sadowsky Metro/Mike Lull?

[Musicman20]

I know, I know, a lot of people would laugh at the question. But just think about it...

In places like the USA and Japan, the Sandberg basses are very expensive. It is almost the equivilant of the extra we pay on something like a Sadowsky Metro or, as another more expensive example, a Mike Lull. I’ve seen comments asking why the USA have to pay so much for a Sandberg....welcome to our world!!!

Lull’s aren’t as ‘mass produced’ as the Sandberg basses, I agree, but the Sandbergs are essentially hand build in Germany, with some quite high end kit like Delano pickups and Glock pre’s.

I’ve seen a few posts on Talkbass comparing the Sandbergs to the Sadowsky Metro’s, and noting they are approaching the same quality, but different designs. I can’t comment, as I’ve not properly played both close together.

Are we missing a trick here? I’ve been discussing an order of a Sandberg bass, and the waiting list is now 6 months plus, because they are becoming busier and busier. It seems to me the market is starting to take notice of them.

Is the reason behind the difference in price simply down to brand? The USA brands have such dominance, but I’d really like to start buying some European kit...

Compare the Sandberg TT or TM4/5 with a Metro UV 4/5...massive price difference. The Sandberg can be two single coil pups, or a H (with coiltap) plus a single coil. The H allows you to drop into single coil mode to get a normal jazz tone. The pre’s aren’t that different in what they can do, eg the Sandberg is 2 band, push/pull active/passive, with a tone control. The Sadowsky is a 2 band, with the VTC. Both can have blocks, no binding, but Sandberg has a lot more colour options.

One would set you back £2200 ish, the other £1200-1400 ish.

Is there a large difference in quality? Is the tone good with both basses?

I have no idea.

Then you have the option to have boutique quilt tops, ageing, and all sorts of options with the Sandberg. That takes the price up, and then its almost what we expect from a Lull...

Again, the difference? Who knows.

Is this just another example of dominance of brand?

[CHRISDABASS]

Having had experience with both brands i would say that sandberg (the ones i have tried) are not up to the same standards as sadowsky.

All sandbergs i have played have been rather heavy and clunky feeling in my opinion and in general are less refined when it comes to the finer details like neck alignment, Strings running correctly over the pickup poles etc

I no longer own either brand so i don't feel biased either way but i feel sadowsky have the edge.

The price of either brand is getting quite silly for what you get. At £2000+ for a sadowsky you're easily getting into custom bass territory.

[Ghost_Bass]

I have a different opinion of Chris. I own a California VM-5 and had it up against 2 Sads on our last bass bash. One can see that the Sad is a more expensive instrument but not by so much difference. My bass has a flawless fit and finish, everything came prefectly aligned and setup. I had a problem with the pickups on mine (lack of pole pieces grounding) and Sandberg sent new pickups free of charge very quickly.
Electronics are very good, the glock is very musical and versatile and doesn´t have a volume drop between active/passive. On passive mode the high knob works as a passive tone control. My bass is the lightest bass i ever owned, lighter than the Ken Smith but doesn't lacks in tone.

I would buy a sandberg over a Sadowsky any time, i can´t justify paying the extra 1K.
Sandberg necks tend to be a bit chuncky but i like them that way.
Here's a video of mine on the bass bash (after it enters a Fodera, you can hear the difference but is it a 10K difference?):
[url="http://youtu.be/cnFyQgxsrFA"]http://youtu.be/cnFyQgxsrFA[/url]

cheers

[CHRISDABASS]

I may have just been unlucky with the sandbergs i have tried and in no way to i wish to bash them it was just from my experience with 5-6 instruments i've tried.
There are good and not so good examples of most bass brands out there and lets be fair a lot of the not so good bunch can be made perfectly playable with a decent setup.

[mike257]

I think my Sandberg is a tremendous instrument and the longer I spend with it, the more I feel I'll never need another bass. Obviously things like neck profiles will come down to personal taste and it took some adjusting after being used to a ray but my MM doesn't get a look in now.

No surprise that the waiting list is shooting up, they deserve any success and recognition coming their way - colour me a fanboy!

[longtimefred]

I have a Sandberg PM4 or whatever its called now and its amazing. I played a Sadowsky P/J Metro and i really really prefer the Sandberg. The Sadowsky felt like it needed a darn good setup to get anywhere near what my PM4 is.

I will never get rid of my Sandberg, i am a total fanboy, it just sounds and feels amazing to play. I will partner it with a Dingwall at some point though

[fretmeister]

I had a JM / TM4 and I loved the way it played and the sound.

But it was massively heavy so it had to go. Definitely one of the best built basses I've ever had though. If it had been 8lb or under it would never have gone anywhere.

[CHRISDABASS]

sounds like i need to re visit sandberg basses very soon! any stockists in the leeds area (apart from PMT)

[BigRedX]

Sandberg don't make a T-Bird shaped bass so they are certainly not a Mike Lull equivalent!

[mikegatward]

I've a Sandberg Panther Special up for sale at the moment and might be putting up a mint JJ4 up shortly depending on another deal. The JJ4 is all black and a rosewood neck with no dots or inlays

[Musicman20]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1370445510' post='2100998']
Sandberg don't make a T-Bird shaped bass so they are certainly not a Mike Lull equivalent!
[/quote]

They will custom make anything...they have made some VERY obscure basses recently.

It isn't obvious though, when looking at their site, that this is an option.

The Lull T Bird looks great, but far too pricey for what it is, IMO. Lull basses as a whole seem to be very high quality, but I wouldn't want that headstock.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1370427549' post='2100574']
I know, I know, a lot of people would laugh at the question. But just think about it...

In places like the USA and Japan, the Sandberg basses are very expensive. It is almost the equivilant of the extra we pay on something like a Sadowsky Metro or, as another more expensive example, a Mike Lull. I’ve seen comments asking why the USA have to pay so much for a Sandberg....welcome to our world!!!

Lull’s aren’t as ‘mass produced’ as the Sandberg basses, I agree, but the Sandbergs are essentially hand build in Germany, with some quite high end kit like Delano pickups and Glock pre’s.

I’ve seen a few posts on Talkbass comparing the Sandbergs to the Sadowsky Metro’s, and noting they are approaching the same quality, but different designs. I can’t comment, as I’ve not properly played both close together.

Are we missing a trick here? I’ve been discussing an order of a Sandberg bass, and the waiting list is now 6 months plus, because they are becoming busier and busier. It seems to me the market is starting to take notice of them.

Is the reason behind the difference in price simply down to brand? The USA brands have such dominance, but I’d really like to start buying some European kit...

Compare the Sandberg TT or TM4/5 with a Metro UV 4/5...massive price difference. The Sandberg can be two single coil pups, or a H (with coiltap) plus a single coil. The H allows you to drop into single coil mode to get a normal jazz tone. The pre’s aren’t that different in what they can do, eg the Sandberg is 2 band, push/pull active/passive, with a tone control. The Sadowsky is a 2 band, with the VTC. Both can have blocks, no binding, but Sandberg has a lot more colour options.

One would set you back £2200 ish, the other £1200-1400 ish.

Is there a large difference in quality? Is the tone good with both basses?

I have no idea.

Then you have the option to have boutique quilt tops, ageing, and all sorts of options with the Sandberg. That takes the price up, and then its almost what we expect from a Lull...

Again, the difference? Who knows.

Is this just another example of dominance of brand?
[/quote]

Your touching on a really complicated and potentially very sticky subject here Gareth , on what makes basses above a certain price point worth their asking price and how they compare in terms of overall quality and value for money . My abbreviated answer would be that above a certain point , the law of diminishing returns kicks in more and more , and you are , in a lot of cases at least , paying for very small but not neccesaruilly inconsequential differences and improvements to the overall playing and owning experience . I've never played or even seen a Sandberg in the flesh , so I can't comment on them , but I do know that Mike Lull builds basses to a very high standard in anyones estimation , and he is a very good guy to deal with . If he puts his name on a bass , it has had some care taken over it . Exactly the same with Roger Sadowsky . If either of these guys makes you a bass , they are genuinely concerned that the bass is as right as it can possibly be , without exception . They have built a reputation on that , and they take it very seriously . That said , is the experience of playing one of these high end basses that much better overall than a well - chosen bass at half or less than half the price ? Overall I would say probably not . Playing an EBMM or American Standard Fender can sound and feel just as good in the final analysis . Small differences in manufacturing techniques and cosmetic features that soon just become part of the furniture anyway end up costing a lot of money . Don't get me wrong , I love high - end basses , but , paradoxically , they aren't that much more useful for actually playing bass on than a mass - produced basses of decent quality .

Edited June 5, 2013 by Dingus

[longtimefred]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1370445510' post='2100998']
Sandberg don't make a T-Bird shaped bass so they are certainly not a Mike Lull equivalent!
[/quote]

i will just point you here [url="http://www.sandberg-guitars.com/basscat-overview/customshop/customised-basses-1/customised-basses-2"]http://www.sandberg-guitars.com/basscat-overview/customshop/customised-basses-1/customised-basses-2[/url]

[Dingus]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1370432953' post='2100686']
I have a different opinion of Chris. I own a California VM-5 and had it up against 2 Sads on our last bass bash. One can see that the Sad is a more expensive instrument but not by so much difference. My bass has a flawless fit and finish, everything came prefectly aligned and setup. I had a problem with the pickups on mine (lack of pole pieces grounding) and Sandberg sent new pickups free of charge very quickly.
Electronics are very good, the glock is very musical and versatile and doesn´t have a volume drop between active/passive. On passive mode the high knob works as a passive tone control. My bass is the lightest bass i ever owned, lighter than the Ken Smith but doesn't lacks in tone.

I would buy a sandberg over a Sadowsky any time, i can´t justify paying the extra 1K.
Sandberg necks tend to be a bit chuncky but i like them that way.
Here's a video of mine on the bass bash (after it enters a Fodera, you can hear the difference but is it a 10K difference?):
[media]http://youtu.be/cnFyQgxsrFA[/media]

cheers
[/quote]

I had watched this twice before I realised this little get together was in Portugul . Intially , when I couldn't make out what people were saying I presumed it must have been the North East bass bash and the people speaking were Geordies !

Edited June 5, 2013 by Dingus

[thisnameistaken]

I think the Sandbergs are more interesting. Sadowsky and Lakland make really slick basses but they are dull.

[JTUK]

I'd put Lull above both in the OP ...from what I have seen.

[edster]

I've got a JM4 and I'm very impressed with it. I've found the build quality to be excellent. I've never had any issues with it and I love the sound. It is very heavy though. I don't think I'll ever part with it and would have no hesitation buying another one.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1370448727' post='2101068']
I had watched this twice before I realised this little get together was in Portugul . Intially , when I couldn't make out what people were saying I presumed it must have been the North East bass bash and the people speaking were Geordies !
[/quote]

HAHA!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1370448505' post='2101062']
Your touching on a really complicated and potentially very sticky subject here Gareth , on what makes basses above a certain price point worth their asking price and how they compare in terms of overall quality and value for money . My abbreviated answer would be that above a certain point , the law of diminishing returns kicks in more and more , and you are , in a lot of cases at least , paying for very small but not neccesaruilly inconsequential differences and improvements to the overall playing and owning experience . I've never played or even seen a Sandberg in the flesh , so I can't comment on them , but I do know that Mike Lull builds basses to a very high standard in anyones estimation , and he is a very good guy to deal with . If he puts his name on a bass , it has had some care taken over it . Exactly the same with Roger Sadowsky . If either of these guys makes you a bass , they are genuinely concerned that the bass is as right as it can possibly be , without exception . They have built a reputation on that , and they take it very seriously . That said , is the experience of playing one of these high end basses that much better overall than a well - chosen bass at half or less than half the price ? Overall I would say probably not . Playing an EBMM or American Standard Fender can sound and feel just as good in the final analysis . Small differences in manufacturing techniques and cosmetic features that soon just become part of the furniture anyway end up costing a lot of money . Don't get me wrong , I love high - end basses , but , paradoxically , they aren't that much more useful for actually playing bass on than a mass - produced basses of decent quality .
[/quote]

Ay, don't get me wrong, Lull/Sadowsky basses are absolutely top notch and superb. We do unfortunately however pay a fairly large chunk in import duties and VAT, so it shoots up even more. Plus, the dollar/pound isn't great at the moment.

Sandberg are available much cheaper, (about £1200-1400 for a top notch 5 string) and a lot of that comes from the fact its European. The Americans then get burnt with the Sandberg prices and pay about £1800+ for the Marlowe DK bass, whereas here I've seen them for £1450.

ALl interesting though. Shame all my GAS is usually for USA products!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1370452843' post='2101196']
I'd put Lull above both in the OP ...from what I have seen.
[/quote]

This is nice...might look better with pearl blocks...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e272/Malpasso/Sandberg/Sandy2Askew.jpg

[Musicman20]

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l175/GobBass/SandbergJJ4.jpg

[Musicman20]

http://www.markstein.de/WebRoot/Store/Shops/Markstein/4DDD/0A70/DA0E/F11F/0ADF/4DEB/AE91/B69E/AR00025280_1.jpg

[RhysP]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' timestamp='1370431936' post='2100665']
Having had experience with both brands i would say that sandberg (the ones i have tried) are not up to the same standards as sadowsky.

All sandbergs i have played have been rather heavy and clunky feeling in my opinion and in general are less refined when it comes to the finer details like neck alignment, Strings running correctly over the pickup poles etc.
[/quote]
I played quite a few Sandbergs a few years ago when I did a bit of work in Europe & I have to say I found them to be just as you describe here.
I described them at the time as "Agricultural". They may well be a lot better now.

Only ever played two Sadowskys (both NYC models & both a while ago) and I found the quality of them to be astonishingly good.

Never played a Lull so I can't comment.

[LukeFRC]

I've seen plenty of sandbergs in the shops... and Sadowsky. never a Lull.
Looking at them though - I've always seen the sandbergs as equivalent in price to Fender and Musicman and the more mass produced basses- you get maybe better quality but without the "brand" that the americans have.

Sadowsky pitch their metro line above the fender while the NYC line and Lull are obviously even more boutique.

So American boutique manufacturers vs European small batch production in Germany... (you could stick german Warwicks in this question too) are american basses overpriced? are sandberg equivalent to sadowsky? based on price... is the pound stronger against the dollar or the euro?
But at the moment... you could get a custom built bass by a small british manufacturer (ACG, ALPHER, OVERWATER, LETTS come to mind) with a starting price about that of a US built mass produced american standard fender..... I'ld suggest that that is where the value is at the moment!

[Dingus]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1370464685' post='2101492']
Ay, don't get me wrong, Lull/Sadowsky basses are absolutely top notch and superb. We do unfortunately however pay a fairly large chunk in import duties and VAT, so it shoots up even more. Plus, the dollar/pound isn't great at the moment.

Sandberg are available much cheaper, (about £1200-1400 for a top notch 5 string) and a lot of that comes from the fact its European. The Americans then get burnt with the Sandberg prices and pay about £1800+ for the Marlowe DK bass, whereas here I've seen them for £1450.

ALl interesting though. Shame all my GAS is usually for USA products!
[/quote]

That's true about the duty and VAT ect .Gareth , and it can be frustrating , BUT ( that's a big but ) ... you have to consider the amount of money of Americans have to take out of their income for medical insurance and other such things we take for granted in this country ( for now at least - no doubt the current Government have got one eye on taking even more things away from us ) then we get a better deal than we might think buying American basses , all things considered in the wider context . In America lots of goods are cheaper , wages can be higher for educated people and basic taxes are lower , but [u]everything[/u] else costs you so it is questionable if you end up with more disposable income to spend on gear . Bottom line is that you get more bang for your buck with the more intermediate -priced pro - quality gear , in my humble opinion . And you are right that you can get more for your money if you buy British or European , providing you can find products that you find equally appealing as the American - made ones .

Edited June 5, 2013 by Dingus