What the f*** was PUNK?

[xilddx]

I've never been sure. L[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]ady xilddx was a punk in the days when it kicked off in London in the '70s. I just asked her opinion on this and she said punks revelled in shallowness and never took themselves seriously. Out of the Beatles she reckons Ringo was the punk, and that Lydon was too cynical to be a punk, and that Sid was the real punk in the Pistols.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]So what do you reckon punk is?[/font][/color]

[Thread concept credited to BetaFunk]

Edited June 8, 2013 by xilddx

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370652657' post='2104109']
Thread concept credited to BetaFunk]
[/quote]
It's a great honour Sir!

There are lots of definitions to the term Punk. Before the 1970s i'd heard it mostly in American films. Humphrey Bogart may have unceremoniously slapped someone around the kisser before calling them a no good punk. Before that i understand it simply meant low or worthless and sometimes a harlot.

[Schnozzalee]

The poor quality music that ruined rock...who said that?? [size=4] [/size]

[xilddx]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1370653340' post='2104116']
It's a great honour Sir!

There are lots of definitions to the term Punk. Before the 1970s i'd heard it mostly in American films. Humphrey Bogart may have unceremoniously slapped someone around the kisser before calling them a no good punk. Before that i understand it simply meant low or worthless and sometimes a harlot.
[/quote]

Likewise, thank you

I think were trying to define the values of the the punk MOVEMENT I suppose.

[skankdelvar]

Depends who one might have asked and when one asked them. Steve Jones might have said it was about having a laugh and thieving some gear. Strummer would have bimbled on about Sten guns in Knightsbridge.

Elvis Costello would have sneered at your girlfriend and walked off, while Johnny Moped gurned in the background. Patrik Fitzgerald might have sobbed quietly into his pillowcase at precisely the same moment that - several thousand miles away - Johnny Ramone was mailing off his NRA membership renewal fee.

Out the back, Paul Weller could have been observed hastily bundling his union jack flags into a dustbin and disavowing himself of his pro-conservative remarks. Meanwhile Tom Robinson was searching high and low for a turkey-baster.

It was a rainbow coalition of fluent bollocks-speakers. Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, But to be young was very heaven.
[color=#FFFFFF].[/color]

Edited June 8, 2013 by skankdelvar

[borisbrain]

Funny, I was having this conversation earlier this evening when I was asked what punk was by a lad of 21 or so. I felt like I'd been asked the facts of life...

All I could really say was that it depends on whose version you want to believe, as some people can get really picky about this sort of thing. There are those who say it was born from a DIY sense of fashion and clothing, hence all the ripped tights and safety pins - they generally held people's clothes together rather than any great statement of fashion. This developed into a DIY approach to music, as bands with little or no musical training pushed aside all the dreadfully boring prog rock bands of the time, when it was [i]de rigeur [/i]to watch Rick Wakeman play a 45 minute solo across 8 different keyboards, or all the pomp and posturing of glam rock. In this version of punk history, the key bands were Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Sex Pistols, Buzzcocks, even Joy Division.

There are others who proclaim that punk was born in New York in the mid 70s with the likes of The Ramones, Iggy & The Stooges, and Blondie at CBGBs. Others trace it back to bands like The Kinks.

I have no strong opinions, but I'm glad that it all happened. Keeps me out of mischief nowadays...

BB

[Lowender]

Actually, it was a pure marketing scheme -- supposedly a rebellion against the ever increasing pomposity of rock music and bringing it back to the "street musicians." Any idiot with a guitar and an attitude could play it. And the critics decided who was "important."

Having said that, The Sex Pistols had a couple of good songs.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Lowender

[Lozz196]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370652657' post='2104109']
I've never been sure. L[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]ady xilddx was a punk in the days when it kicked off in London in the '70s. I just asked her opinion on this and she said punks revelled in shallowness and never took themselves seriously. Out of the Beatles she reckons Ringo was the punk, and that Lydon was too cynical to be a punk, and that Sid was the real punk in the Pistols.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]So what do you reckon punk is?[/font][/color]

[Thread concept credited to BetaFunk]
[/quote]

Steve Jones was the real punk out of the Pistols, but names (and images) like Rotten & Vicious meant they ended up with more media.

Punk was my thing - and still is. To me, it was an exciting form of music, full of energy, and with some great clothes. I never bought into the rebellion side of it - probably that little bit too young when it was going to understand all of that (11 in 1977). Take away the image of punk, and you`d be left with Pub Rock which preceded it - Dr Feelgood etc.

[lojo]

What I remember from those days (I was very young) was that punks where the same as every other social group , some punks would kick your head in for no reason, and others had a hippie type outlook, so pretty much the same as mods, skins, casuals , rockers and so on

Only difference was the style of dress and music

Thought the clash where to clever to be punk (as fantastic as they where) and the pistols where to contrived.

[thisnameistaken]

I'd agree it's the DIY ethic that identifies punk for me. I thought the rave scene in the late '80s and early '90s was very punk actually.

[lurksalot]

I get the impression when looking back, that punk was a fashion experiment that spawned some great music, loads of crap , but some great stuff.

[skej21]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1370677764' post='2104216']
I'd agree it's the DIY ethic that identifies punk for me. I thought the rave scene in the late '80s and early '90s was very punk actually.
[/quote]

+1

When you at band's like Rancid who refused to move from the little DIY labels to mainstream ones (unlike Greenday for example) that shows a true belief in retaining the punk ethics that they started out with but also being successful because of it. However, they are good musicians with the ability to execute most musical ideas but write music that expresses punk ideals (I.e. anti-virtuosic solos that react against the self-indulgence of rock guitar solos).

I never thought the Pistols were punk. Just a bunch of idiots who couldn't play which dictates how their music turned out. Trying to claim youre punk because you're technically restricted isnt punk for me. Theres no active, considered rebellion against other music/musicians, it just happened through lack of choice/musicianship. If that's the case, my 86 year old nan would make a legendary punk bassist cos she can't play either!

[Cat Burrito]

Punk is an attitude. Why people focus entirely on London circa 1976 is beyond me when it was very much prevalent in bands from New York beforehand (NY Dolls), the 60s garage scene and rockabilly. What a lot of punk hating musicians are objecting to is the cartoon version in mainstream culture. Like any genre there are some amazing recordings and great musicians linked with punk

[Len_derby]

Good old rock n' roll re-packaged for a particular time and place.
I don't mean that to be cynical or dismissive. I was 18 when the Sex Pistols came on the scene. Lots of fun.

[BigRedX]

Here in the UK punk was a wake-up call for pop and rock music that had become increasingly complacent, self-indulgent and dull. For me it wasn't so much the initial music which was fast furious and fun, but the DIY spirit that came immediately in it's wake and has ultimately led to the diverse range of music available to hear today.

[JTUK]

JFDI.... they wanted a vehicle to encompass that and they got it.
The music they were taking the pee out of really needed that check... but
what they replaced itg with wasn't very good.
Still, it blew away a few cobwebs and a few decent artists came out of it.

It's funny, ...they laughed at the likes of KIss but were likely all Roxy fans...!!
Attitude was one thing but in the end they just wanted to dress up and it helped if they had their own
movement

[SteveK]

Musically speaking, punk was the worst thing to happen. There was a handful of decent records from so called punk bands, but mostly it was drivel.
Personally, I had/have no interest in 'music' created by anyone who barely knows how to hold a guitar or a pair of drum sticks.
Of course, 'attitude' is important in music, but when that's all there is... then, no thanks!

[Musicman20]

I'd agree that Rancid embody the modern ethic of punk. They are successful, and they probably make a big wedge of cash, but they've always done it their own way and written raw and catchy punk/ska.

In my opinion, an extremely important era of music that influences me more than I realise, (and I wasn't born til 81).

[Bilbo]

It was just another way of a generation of disaffected yoof to say saying 'F*** you'!

We all did it one way or another.

[Jigster]

A socio-political angle also perhaps. Aside from its obvious DIY three chord attack on indulgence, complacency and bandstanding, punk has often been connected to the Situationists movement.

See here for Situationism http://louderthanwar.com/situationism-explained-affect-punk-pop-culture/

[Jigster]

The abridged version : Situationists[color=#37281C] believed that advanced capitalism bred dissatisfaction and thus human desire needed to be fulfilled by finding alternatives to capitalist society. They suggested for this the construction of situations, through the avant-garde, art, psychogeography and urbanism"...and music I guess [/color]

[color=#37281C]I'm just saying. Dunno I'm that convinced [/color]

Edited June 8, 2013 by Jigster

[Lowender]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370684703' post='2104305']
It was just another way of a generation of disaffected yoof to say saying 'F*** you'!

We all did it one way or another.
[/quote]

Agreed. And with any artistic/cultural movement, there are going to be some interesting things that come from it. Throw paint at a canvas 1000 times and a couple of them might wind up looking pretty good. That's the way the anarchistic fashion of art goes. Punk also added an energy to music that'd been lacking. But it soon dissipated.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370684703' post='2104305']
It was just another way of a generation of disaffected yoof to say saying 'F*** you'!

We all did it one way or another.
[/quote]
You're right. Every youth generation shows their disaffection from 50s Teddy Boys, Beatniks through to 60s Mods and Rockers and 70s Skinheads and then Punks.
As i'm a bit out of touch with yoof culture how do they show their disaffection nowadays.

.

[BetaFunk]

Punk to me was the more hardcore groups. I used to see The Stranglers in London pubs and never thought that they were remotely like punks. The same with Joe Strummer's 101ers and even The Slits and Raincoats who were more like hippies to me but all of these groups were lumped in with punks.

[Highfox]

[quote name='BurritoBass' timestamp='1370680104' post='2104237']
Punk is an attitude. Why people focus entirely on London circa 1976 is beyond me when it was very much prevalent in bands from New York beforehand (NY Dolls), the 60s garage scene and rockabilly. What a lot of punk hating musicians are objecting to is the cartoon version in mainstream culture. Like any genre there are some amazing recordings and great musicians linked with punk
[/quote]
[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370684703' post='2104305']
It was just another way of a generation of disaffected yoof to say saying 'F*** you'!

We all did it one way or another.
[/quote]

Put those two together and add fashion and it pretty much sums it up for me.
It' still the attitude to me, you can still be a punk playing Jazz