BetaFunk Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370864031' post='2106418'] My thought too. [/quote] That got me thinking that of all the bands i saw in the 70s that came under the 'punk' umbrella there were only a few punks at these gigs. I don't mean real hardcore punk groups but even at some The Clash gigs the punks were well outnumbered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370652657' post='2104109'][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]So what do you reckon punk is?[/font][/color] [/quote] It was a cynical marketing device to group together bands that supposedly had the same attitude to music. There have always been bands who weren't that impressive technically and who just wanted to play live... and who appealed to an audience who thought noodly guitar solos were boring. I imagine the Kinks would have been called a "punk" band if they had been 10 years later in being formed. The telling thing (for me) is the invention of subgenres to try to shoe-horn bands that sort-of-fit-but-not-quite into an over-riding "punk" label. Siouxsie and the Banshees got a little too "good" and it became a little embarrassing to call them "punk"... clearly they could play. Bands like Joy Division and the Cure were sort of the same, so they called them "post-punk" and solved the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I hated mainstream 70s punk, the Pistols just annoyed me. TBH I didn't really sit up and take notice of anything in particular until I saw the Specials doing 'Gangsters' on TOTP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1370864858' post='2106452'] It was a cynical marketing device to group together bands that supposedly had the same attitude to music. [/quote] Every type of music that you are ever going to come across is the product of a marketing exercise. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is lying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 It was the fresh and spontaneous musical movement which saved rock and roll from itself. It only existed from 1976 to 1979 though. There is no more real punk music. However, rock and roll, like all things that are nearly 70 years old, is dying and will soon be extinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I got told a very interesting story by somebody who would know of how the whole 'punk scene' really got off the ground in the first place. I'm saving it until I can wirite it out properly with spelling and punctuation and everyfink. Then I'll submit it to whatever the online equivalent of Sniffin' Glue is. Anyway as I might have said before UK punk 76-80 'ish had huge variety and experimentation. Not at all the sea of sub Ramones stuff people might have you think. If you don't like it for ruining the career of ELP or Plantagenet Escapade or whoever blame the shallowness of A&R men rather than moaning about punk. The arty sounding 'Midnight Circus' got their demo tape rejected by EMI. When they re-sent it in under the name' the Flys' they got signed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapbassSteve Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1370694152' post='2104469'] Read [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Englands-Dreaming-Jon-Savage/dp/0571227201/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370694110&sr=8-1&keywords=england%27s+dreaming"]this[/url]. Nuff said [/quote] This book pretty much covers it for me, although I missed out on actually experiencing all that and showed up in '91. Annoyingly, for the most part my generation seem a little too busy thinking massive NHS-style glasses, those 'Hitler Youth' haircuts and Mumford & Sons are cool to worry about being remotely angry about the state of things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1370866738' post='2106501'] The arty sounding 'Midnight Circus' got their demo tape rejected by EMI. When they re-sent it in under the name' [b]the Flys[/b]' they got signed... [/quote] And dear Neil O was a fellow band mate, many many years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prunesquallor Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I think there's a lot of confusion about punk because the modern label 'punk music', meaning basic angry music, was retrofitted on to it later. Punk was a (very) loose movement, reacting against the (as they saw it) boring music of the time. The The bands were very varied, ranging from the Pistols to the Buzzcocks to the Banshees to Bauhaus, and the clothing was also very DIY and individual. All called themselves punks, but many people (now) would say that punk was defined by the Sex Pistols and Vivienne Westwood-inspired clothing alone - a real testament to the marketing of Malcolm McLaren, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I love Punk & always will, I was spawned into this world in 1976 so Punk always felt like the music that I was borne for. It was not just the music in my views it was everything about it, the messed up art that everyone could do by [i]"Just having a go" [/i]. the clothing style which was just anything you wanted to wear.....And more importantly to me it snatched music out of the hands of the cringe worthy musical snobs that think just because they know what a pentatonic scale is that somehow music belongs to them, it doesn't. Punk told the world that music belongs to everyone, if you have something to say & you want to make music then make music, dont be intimidated by the idiots who think people should listen to them just because they have been to music collage. [i]F*ck em.....lets have fun & be creative. [/i]It inspired me that someone with limited resources, limited skills & the drive to say something worth saying can and will be heard by people. I think we all spend too much time worrying about our knowledge and skills to just roll our sleeves and make some music. It's exactly the same for Art & fashion, just do it for Christ sakes. let other people judge you later for what you do. It always seems that Punk was & still is disliked by the ones who just didn't get it. The musical snobs, the rock dinosaurs, the classical art fans, the intellectual chavs, the conservatives & the pop fans of the day, because it wasn't about [i]"ooo look at me I'm so clever & accomplished" [/i]it was more a case of [i]"down some beer, hammer out some chords and have a great laugh doing it"[/i]. I'm not sure anyone who was taking part realised the impact it was going to have but so what ? who really cares ? it was a time & place that will never happen again. The underground techno scene was similar to punk in loads of ways, the scene didn't belong to anyone, it was just a scene, you didn't have to be any good as a musician to make music, all you needed was a just either a computer or a set of cheap decks, you didn't have to conform to a fashion as no one cared what you looked like, a person who made the music was just a name on the sticker on the slab of vinyl, the night clubs were just warehouses with DIY back drops, a set of decks & the anti society that belonged to it. I love it when things get shaken up, people follow set rules & dont deviate from them rules, then someone comes along & does not care about these rules & just does what they want......most people love what they hear, the experts just stroke their chins confused, then they sit & spend years conceptualizing about what the innovators have done, desperately trying to piece together why and how they got the glory and are seen as the brilliant ones. Mozart did just that....over complicated music torn apart & ignored. He ripped up the rule book and made simple stylish music & the musical hierarchy hated him because he made music that was the exactly the opposite to their music..... So what is Punk? it's anything to everybody. To me it's about tearing up rule books and opening doors to anyone who wants to just do something without the feeling of being judged. Be an oddball & be proud of it !! To others well......that's for them to decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='fumps' timestamp='1370870503' post='2106596'] I love Punk & always will ...[/quote] If Carlsberg made Basschat posts, they would probably still be f***ing sh*te compared to fumps. Best post in the thread AFAIC mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Aye fank you....I'll be here all week be sure to spit on your waitress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) Some passionate responses here, not surprising really, music tends to be divisive like that. I wasn't around at the time, so I guess I'm not really qualified to talk on the subject. It all looks a bit style over substance to me, all that angst and outrageous fashion seems more important than the actual music. Personally I'd prefer a bass player to be in tune and playing something that sounds good... Rob Edited June 10, 2013 by CamdenRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1370872368' post='2106636'] Personally I'd prefer a bass player to be in tune and playing something that sounds good... [/quote] You snobby elitist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1370872540' post='2106638'] You snobby elitist. [/quote] Guilty as charged... I'm off to brush the tennis court and tend the peacocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1370872368' post='2106636'] Some passionate responses here, not surprising really, music tends to be divisive like that. I wasn't around at the time, so I guess I'm not really qualified to talk on the subject. It all looks a bit style over substance to me, all that angst and outrageous fashion seems more important than the actual music. Personally I'd prefer a bass player to be in tune and playing something that sounds good... Rob [/quote] But what IS music in this context? Music stirring the audience is not dependent on 'great' composition and instrumental performance skills, it can be very simple and easy to play and still have great passion and meaning, especially with live performance. What you said is like what a classical afficionado would say about Jamiroquai or summat. Music can have cultural significance without it being elevated technically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1370872368' post='2106636'] It all looks a bit style over substance to me, all that angst and outrageous fashion seems more important than the actual music. [/quote] IME when someone says things like "style over substance" what it generally means is that they have no appreciation of style at all which I find somewhat sad as they are missing out. To really appreciate anything creative you need to realise that the style is part of the substance. The two cannot be separated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1370873050' post='2106647'] IME when someone says things like "style over substance" what it generally means is that they have no appreciation of style at all which I find somewhat sad as they are missing out. To really appreciate anything creative you need to realise that the style is part of the substance. The two cannot be separated. [/quote] Yeah, well said man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370873021' post='2106645'] But what IS music in this context? Music stirring the audience is not dependent on 'great' composition and instrumental performance skills, it can be very simple and easy to play and still have great passion and meaning, especially with live performance. What you said is like what a classical afficionado would say about Jamiroquai or summat. Music can have cultural significance without it being elevated technically. [/quote] Yeah that seems a fair point, I agree to a certain extent, after all what is music for if not to stir something in those who listen to it. I'm not personally into the overtly technical approach to composition, always more impressed with someone who only knows three chords but has managed to write a good tune with them. I just always felt punk was kinda false and stylized, marketed at those who wanted someone to shout for them in what was to be honest a pretty bleak period in history for many economically and socially. I guess if it spoke to people though I can see the relevance. Just not for me as a musical style, everything else aside. Rob Edited June 10, 2013 by CamdenRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetaFunk Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1370866738' post='2106501'] If you don't like it for ruining the career of ELP or Plantagenet Escapade [/quote] That's exactly why i liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 What's the problem with Punk Nige? So what if the Pistols couldn't play that well in '75, they'd only been together for about 5 mins FFS. I bet it took Rush a couple of years to get it together and no-one bangs on that they couldn't play. It just happens that most of the punk bands were young and grew up in public. I've seen loads of punk bands play, and many of them are blisteringly good, and I've seen loads of musos who can undoubtedly play be blisteringly dull. Anyway, '76 is long gone, but thank god it happened and blew away some of the fat boring old cobweb farts. Blah blah blah, Malcolm McLaren Blah blah blah Vivian Westwood Blah blah blah couldn't play Blah blah blah cynical marketing exercise Blah blah blah The Stranglers were old along with the 101'ers and jumped on the bandwagon Blah blah blah I saw the pistols and there were only 3 people and a dog in the audience. Heard it all before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1370873476' post='2106652'] Yeah that seems a fair point, I agree to a certain extent, after all what is music for if not to sir something in those who listen to it. I'm not personally into the the overtly technical approach to composition, always more impressed with someone who only knows three chords but has managed to write a good tune with them. I just always felt punk was kinda false and stylized, marketed at those who wanted someone to shout for them in what was to be honest a pretty bleak period in history for many economically and socially. I guess if it spoke to people though I can see the relevance. Just not for me as a musical style, everything else aside. Rob [/quote] I don't know how old you are, but I grew up in the '70s, when almost everything was 'normal', you know, all that 'ordinary respectable working people' crap that politicians and the Daily Mail tell you is essential for civilisation to survive, when a band like Black Sabbath meant imminent social collapse in the eyes of 'normal' people and politicians. You can't imagine the fear that the punk movement engendered in 'ordinary normal' people. Everyone had to look grey or brown, if you wore colours or odd socks or whatever, people thought you were the herald of the breakdown of society. Of course the 'ordinary' people could wear colours too, but only on Saturday or Sunday, where temporary social collapse was controlled by keeping it in the vicinity of the football stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetaFunk Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1370873872' post='2106661'] Blah blah blah, Malcolm McLaren Blah blah blah Vivian Westwood Blah blah blah couldn't play Blah blah blah cynical marketing exercise Blah blah blah The Stranglers were old along with the 101'ers and jumped on the bandwagon Blah blah blah I saw the pistols and there were only 3 people and a dog in the audience. [/quote] That should be a song. Punk or otherwise i'd buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1370873872' post='2106661'] What's the problem with Punk Nige? So what if the Pistols couldn't play that well in '75, they'd only been together for about 5 mins FFS. I bet it took Rush a couple of years to get it together and no-one bangs on that they couldn't play. It just happens that most of the punk bands were young and grew up in public. I've seen loads of punk bands play, and many of them are blisteringly good, and I've seen loads of musos who can undoubtedly play be blisteringly dull. Anyway, '76 is long gone, but thank god it happened and blew away some of the fat boring old cobweb farts. Blah blah blah, Malcolm McLaren Blah blah blah Vivian Westwood Blah blah blah couldn't play Blah blah blah cynical marketing exercise Blah blah blah The Stranglers were old along with the 101'ers and jumped on the bandwagon Blah blah blah I saw the pistols and there were only 3 people and a dog in the audience. Heard it all before [/quote] I've never had a problem with punk, mate, just wondered what people think it was/is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370874154' post='2106670'] I've never had a problem with punk, mate, just wondered what people think it was/is. [/quote] It's what-ever you want it to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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