investment Bass purchase

[clashcityrocker]

No no,this isn't an excuse to my misses to buy more basses,no really! I went to my local music shop for a perve yesterday,and was surprised to see a 77 jazz bass in sunburst,on a private sale. Firstly Iv always loved the idea of owning an old fender and as my username suggests,I think that was a great year for music (unfortunately 10 Years before I was born). It got me thinking,is it wise to buy it as an investment,keep it for years,hopefully knowing that it is only increasing in money. I guess it's down to condition etc,it's up for 1395 but I reckon there is room for haggling. The idea is buy it for as close to 1k as possible then sell it in 15 years for 10k ;-)

Edited June 9, 2013 by clashcityrocker

[BigRedX]

Buy it because you like it and want to play it. IMO if you buy any instrument with the express purpose of making money on it in the long term you are going to be disappointed.

Investments only work when you can buy very cheap and sell expensively. Personally I don't think £1395 is cheap for a late 70s Fender (unless it's in completely original and unworn condition). If it's worth £10k in 15 years time it will be mostly down to inflation and not an increase in actual value.

[clashcityrocker]

Yeah I guess your right and from what I've read it wasn't a particularly good era for fenders,quality wise. Sure did look pretty though,would look good hanging on the wall,but then I guess the 1400 would look just as good in my bank

[Ou7shined]

The only thing with buying as an investment is that everyone is having the same idea. One wonders how far this vintage phenomenon will go. Will we see a day when a 50 year old bass is worth not much more than it's real world value due to so many nice examples being stashed away in uncle's lofts wating for the market to mature?

[molan]

As BRX says, if you want to buy as an investment it really needs to be 100% original. Values of non-original basses fluctuate all the time and, when the market is rising, it's the all original ones that rise fastest and make most money.

£1,395 is a good price for an all original '77. Colour can be important in late 70's basses as well plus weight makes a real difference. Anything over 10lbs will be worth to most buyers and close to 9lbs (so long as it doesn't have nasty neck dive that some light weight Fenders have) will sell a lot easier.

Original case can make a big difference as well.

[Grangur]

A classical guitarist friend surprised me the other day when he told me a good classical guitar has a life of about 10 years. Ok, he's a serious player and what he calls "finished" my be down to his hi-fi ears. But it does make me wonder; will bass guitars have a shelf life too?

The electric bass is comparatively a new instrument invention. Will we find in another 20 years that technology has moved on and the "vintage sound" and all other tones down the line, will be so easily replicated on the new instruments of the day that aging instruments are of no interest to anyone other than the odd museum?

[JTUK]

A 70's Fender is no real recomendation of any sort of quality, IMO.
If it plays and sounds as you want then maybe go for it and it could be worth more
in the future.

But my '75 Jazz, 3 bolt was easily the worst bass I ever owned ...but today people would
ask £1400-1500 plus for it..???

I think the main reason '70's basses are becoming collector-ish is because 60's are so hard to get.

[clauster]

If you really want to buy a bass as an investment, look for basses that are under-valued at the moment.

Warwick's are where my money would be going at the moment, especially the old German made Corvette Std's. These are selling used for less than the Rockbass equivalent is new. Buy, wait for them to be become popular again and cash in.

[BigRedX]

If you want to make money on musical instruments then buy something new that is distinctive (ie a design that's not based on a Fender) that's just been discontinued and is being sold for a fraction of its original list price. Make sure that you get all the extras (case, documentation etc.) and then hang onto it for about 5 years. Provided that you've picked right you should get at least double what you paid for it.

[Dingus]

I won't bother reiterating a lot of the good advice on the bass itself folks have given already , but just to focus on the future value , I personally think vintage Fenders from the mid - Seventies onwards are currently chronically over - valued and I seriouslly doubt whether they will ever achieve the high values that older Fenders trade for . I say this for a variety of reasons , and not just born out of my own prejudices and my memories of playing and owning numerous Fender basses from this era . You are never going to get ten grand or the equivalent for this bass in fifteen years time . Besides which , trends in musical equipment come and go . Fender reign supreme now and you can get very good money for them , but I remember a time when no one particulaly wanted to buy late 70's Fender basses . What's to say that exotic wood basses with active electronics won't be what are fetching the best money in the future ? The fact that Marcus Miller plays a 77 Jazz is a huge contributory factor in the inflated prices of these basses . When a new bass superhero comes along who champions fretless basses with graphite necks or something equally different to what the trend is now , expect the market to change in emphasis again . If you like this bass and it 's a good example then it's worth a punt at around the stated price , but I wouldn't expect to make too much of a profit on it in real terms even in the distant future .

Edited June 9, 2013 by Dingus

[Mr. Foxen]

Unfashionable stuff is the best investment. Niche stuff too, ideally both, if there isn't much competition on the market when you sell, you dictate price.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='clashcityrocker' timestamp='1370768951' post='2105201']
The idea is buy it for as close to 1k as possible then sell it in 15 years for 10k ;-)
[/quote]

Nice idea, but you'll be at the mercy of fashion and market sentiment and a lot can happen in 15 years.

It's just a bet really and the golden rule (to avoid financial problems) is to only bet what you can afford to lose.

[clashcityrocker]

Lots of sound advice here,just got back from a road trip to buy a Warwick 5er so will have to forget the 77,was abit of a dog anyway (must keep telling myself that)

[White Cloud]

[quote name='clashcityrocker' timestamp='1370810989' post='2105937']
Lots of sound advice here,just got back from a road trip to buy a Warwick 5er so will have to forget the 77,was abit of a dog anyway (must keep telling myself that)
[/quote]
Was it though? Although 70's Fenders generally get a bad rep I owned a 78 Jazz that was actually very very good. I bought several vintage Fenders during the 80's for peanuts as nobody wanted them lol.

Personally I think you are kidding yourself with this investment chit chat...you just wanted to treat yourself to a nice Fender bass

[clashcityrocker]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1370812207' post='2105955']

Was it though? Although 70's Fenders generally get a bad rep I owned a 78 Jazz that was actually very very good. I bought several vintage Fenders during the 80's for peanuts as nobody wanted them lol.

Personally I think you are kidding yourself with this investment chit chat...you just wanted to treat yourself to a nice Fender bass
[/quote]
You may be right,it was the first time I've seen a 'vintage' fender up close,I went abit weak at the knees. I might go play it tomorrow,to destroy the myth,but I can't decide if the myth is that they are amazing old classics,or over-priced crap?!

[White Cloud]

[quote name='clashcityrocker' timestamp='1370812646' post='2105965']
You may be right,it was the first time I've seen a 'vintage' fender up close,I went abit weak at the knees. I might go play it tomorrow,to destroy the myth,but I can't decide if the myth is that they are amazing old classics,or over-priced crap?!
[/quote]
I have played some very old 60's models and honestly wondered what the fuss was all about...I have played some 70's models and thought "hell yeah!".

For the record, the finest Fenders I have ever owned were built by Lakland..................

Edited June 9, 2013 by White Cloud

[Gust0o]

[quote name='clauster' timestamp='1370774691' post='2105284']
If you really want to buy a bass as an investment, look for basses that are under-valued at the moment.
[/quote]

Would be inclined to this advice, if thinking short- to medium-term. In buying a vintage Fender now you are buying high in the hope of selling even higher; you could probably better that return by finding something currently undervalued and which might increase in value - at least in percentage terms.

In the long-term you're banking on all kinds of trends, and perhaps a vintage Fender would work - if the cachet remains, amidst a whole host of provisos; and possibly carry more certainly than some of the more obscure, or lesser, brands over that time frame.7

No guarantees, of course, as with all investments. Just because Fender's have increased in value doesn't mean they always will, or at such a rate, etc. The world could go to sh*t and it could just be worth firewood

[Dingus]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1370815139' post='2106013']
Would be inclined to this advice, if thinking short- to medium-term. In buying a vintage Fender now you are buying high in the hope of selling even higher; you could probably better that return by finding something currently undervalued and which might increase in value - at least in percentage terms.

In the long-term you're banking on all kinds of trends, and perhaps a vintage Fender would work - if the cachet remains, amidst a whole host of provisos; and possibly carry more certainly than some of the more obscure, or lesser, brands over that time frame.7

No guarantees, of course, as with all investments. Just because Fender's have increased in value doesn't mean they always will, or at such a rate, etc. The world could go to sh*t and it could just be worth firewood
[/quote]

A case in point proving this hypothesis is what has happened with Wal basses . Fifteen years ago you could pick up used Wal Custom Basses for £500 - 650 , no problem . They were not that easy to sell at that time , either . Nowadays it's a sellers market and the same basses are regulaly changing hands at around the three grand mark and they sell very easily indeed . Who could have forseen that ? Not me , that's for sure - I had three Wal's that I sold for peanuts .

[iconic]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1370774449' post='2105282']
A 70's Fender is no real recomendation of any sort of quality, IMO.
If it plays and sounds as you want then maybe go for it and it could be worth more
in the future.

But my '75 Jazz, 3 bolt was easily the worst bass I ever owned ...but today people would
ask £1400-1500 plus for it..???

I think the main reason '70's basses are becoming collector-ish is because 60's are so hard to get.
[/quote]

I think 'those in the know whom label things' call this the [i][b]Halo[/b][/i] effect....sorta happens with most things when the original gets over priced for Joe Public so they have to go to the next affordable example that basks in the light of the original.

.....I first saw this with old US muscle cars of all things, but also seen it with old English shotguns.

With all the stick those old 70's Fenders seem to get from now old original owners these bass's are possibly a good example too....although I would be interested to know if they are worth what they originally cost in real terms? Wasn't a 50's Fender P the equivilent of over £2k when new in todays money?

I thought, probably incorrectly, that the market for the top end 50/60's Fender's was softening up a tad, more sellors than buyers so a 'price correction' maybe on the cards this will/may effect the lessen brethen more so?

80's headless stuff seems to be creeping up and finding buyers, then a little dip then up again, 3 steps up, 2 back down...possibly a gentle trend there but still very small beer indeed?

[Truckstop]

Signature models are also a good shout. Basses like the Bob Glaub Laklands should rise in value when they stop making them and if you've got a branded case with all the candy then in 20 years time you should have a banker!

Things like the original Ibanez K5 and the first Yamaha RBXJM (again in good nick with a nice case and candy) should increase in actual value over the next ten years. You can pick them up for around £400 at the moment!

I think the used market will become oversaturated with signature models over the next five years (especially high-end stuff; Will Lee, Bob Glaub, Roscoe Beck etc) they'll be discontinued; and then wait another 5 years and that's when you start thinking about selling!

Truckstop

[Dingus]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1370849970' post='2106154']
I think 'those in the know whom label things' call this the [i][b]Halo[/b][/i] effect....sorta happens with most things when the original gets over priced for Joe Public so they have to go to the next affordable example that basks in the light of the original.

.....I first saw this with old US muscle cars of all things, but also seen it with old English shotguns.

With all the stick those old 70's Fenders seem to get from now old original owners these bass's are possibly a good example too....although I would be interested to know if they are worth what they originally cost in real terms? Wasn't a 50's Fender P the equivilent of over £2k when new in todays money?

I thought, probably incorrectly, that the market for the top end 50/60's Fender's was softening up a tad, more sellors than buyers so a 'price correction' maybe on the cards this will/may effect the lessen brethen more so?

80's headless stuff seems to be creeping up and finding buyers, then a little dip then up again, 3 steps up, 2 back down...possibly a gentle trend there but still very small beer indeed?
[/quote]

The thing about mid to late 1970's Fenders is that they are overpriced[i] in terms of their value as instruments . [/i]The market dictates the final price that things sell at , so if there is demand for 1970's Fenders and the supply is limited ( which it is , and becoming more so all the time ) then the price will be high and no one can really argue with that . However , that is not to say that the increased demand is as a result of what you could descibe as any particulaly desirable or exclusive quality in those basses beyond the romantic associations they hold for some people . If you pay £1500 - £2000 for a mid -Seventies Fender you are not getting a bass that was ever the equivalent in quality to a lot of basses that you can buy new today for that kind of money , or the slew of high - end basses you can buy used for that kind of money . For the most part , you are paying for something completely notional . That is the buyers prerogative , of course , and we are all free to spend our money on whatever we choose for whatever reason , but it's important to go into the deal with your eyes open .

Edited June 11, 2013 by Dingus

[mushers]

i cant see how you can foresee bass prices in the future, best case senario a bass may hold its value in line with inflation.
would be better off sticking 1k in a ISA for 40 years

[LukeFRC]

Go for something either dirt cheap now,
or very original,
or something very rare.

Best thing is a combination of the three.
That overwater original in the for sale section is cheapish, very original and fairly rare- but your guess is as good as mine that in 30 years time it will be worth much.
Something like my JV Squier isn't really original (it's a fender for pete's sake) but it is pretty rare and is pretty cheap when compared to the less rare 70's and early 80's fenders of similar type. again... will it rise in price at all?

[iconic]

Im still newish to basses....but if the bass market follows classic car values...and they have more in common than you would think...asperational purchases with a dollop of nostalgia...it follows that X must of been popular when new = classic vibe and vintage modified jazzers possibly when they finally stop making them!

Edited June 11, 2013 by iconic

[EMG456]

I just used an historic inflation calculator on two prices that I kind of remember from the mid seventies.

There are probably others out there for different countries - this one uses UK inflation rates.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

I was choosing between a Fender and a Rick and buying new - Fender was priced about £300 and Rick £400. Plugging those prices in concludes that they would now cost £2133 for the Fender or £2844 for the Rick.

From this admittedly unrepresentative and small sample we can conclude that buying a bass as an "investment" is a complete waste of time - you're unlikely to get back even the equivalent value in the future let alone make a profit.

Occasionally some buck the trend - like the aforementioned Wals - £800 new in 1984 - equivalent value today £2180 so you would stand a chance of a profit there if you could find a buyer.

If you buy cheaply, it can be different story so the '61 Precision I bought for £125 in 1978 would have cost me the equivalent of £608 today! Then again, I sold it for £450 in 1984 - ho hum.

Buy them to play, not to invest.

Cheers

Ed