So who pays for the damage?

[steviedee]

Could it be covered by house insurance?

[RhysP]

[quote name='steviedee' timestamp='1370858743' post='2106276']
Could it be covered by house insurance?
[/quote]
"1/ The WAL wasn't insured at all seems the owner was of the [i]assumption[/i] that his house contents cover 'covered' the bass...expensive assumption!"

[flyfisher]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1370857759' post='2106252']
This is wisdom.
[/quote]

Indeed. It makes one wonder about a society that legalises alcohol, which generally turns people into fighting machines, but bans cannabis, which generally chills them out.

[steviedee]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1370859301' post='2106293']
"1/ The WAL wasn't insured at all seems the owner was of the [i]assumption[/i] that his house contents cover 'covered' the bass...expensive assumption!"
[/quote]

I missed that apologies. I have my gear named on my house insurance but I would be iffy about taking such a pricey instrument to a pub gig. I feel sorry for the guy obviously people want to play their instruments and in a perfect world they would go unmolested regardless of the cost but sadly that isn't the case.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1370815719' post='2106025']
The guys that broke it. End of.

No need for a disclaimer for the venue, they didn't do it.

I cannot believe anyone would gig an uninsured instrument of that value ! Madness.
[/quote]

Madness didn't use Wals did they? Thought it was baggy trousers. etc.(sorry)

[sarah thomas]

What colour was the car?

[fretmeister]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1370857028' post='2106237']

Someone also told me that if a contractor falls off their own badly maintained ladder on your property, you're liable and can be sued? Is that right?

[/quote]

No.

That's bollocks.

[iconic]

Would/could household insurance cover [i]anything[/i] out of the house when damaged/lost/stolen?

[iconic]

[quote name='sarah thomas' timestamp='1370861789' post='2106351']
What colour was the car?
[/quote]

Moon Dust & Raven...that's silver with black trim deciphered

[markbass555]

Expensive lesson learned. I would never dream of taking my Sadowsky to a pub gig for the same reason.

[steviedee]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1370861999' post='2106360']
Would/could household insurance cover [i]anything[/i] out of the house when damaged/lost/stolen?
[/quote]

I think you would need personal possessions cover, you might get it bundled in to your insurance.

[White Cloud]

I have seen it all in pubs and NOTHING would surprise me....I wont bore you with the details.

One of the worst was when I saw a bass neck snapped in half (a nice vintage Ibanez Musician) by a drunken young "lady" who fell and knocked a PA speaker off it's stand.

It wasn't mine...the owner was enraged beyond belief.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1370861999' post='2106360']
Would/could household insurance cover [i]anything[/i] out of the house when damaged/lost/stolen?
[/quote]

Yes. Most household policies have provision for "all risks" cover for items likely to be taken out of the house, e.g. cameras, phones, ipods, bikes, guns etc. Some require them to be explicitly named if they are above a certain value - it all depends on the policy.

BUT, read the conditions very carefully because musical equipment being used for [u]commercial[/u] purposes will probably not be covered.

[Bilbo]

In my (shared) experience, most insurance is no less a gamble than taking your bass out to a gig. I don't have mine insured because the cost of it balanced against the actual likelihood of a payout makes is pretty pointless (I have the basic MU insurance but that's free).

Insurnace is about minimising risk and, in truth, after 33 years of gigging with only one potential claim, I would consider gigging without insurance to be no grave risk. Sensible precautions such as making sure the instrument isn't too accessible to sticky fingers and, number one, never actually letting it out of your (or a trusted bandmate's) sight pretty much cover it.

I have little faith in insurance, anyway (after 11 years of insuring my dog, a recent claim, my first, resulted in a £320 bill being reduced to £200 - whoopee do.). They just wriggle out of it unless you are willing to let it take over your life and sepdn every waking hour chasing them.

As for venues where there is a likelihood of trouble, why would I play there anyway

[xilddx]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1370814329' post='2105989']
In a bid to make a long story short I got lost at the car? I'm assuming that's just how you know the guy with the Wal.
[/quote]

Me too, very hard to fathom the story without much effort.

As far as the Wal is concerned, the pub's not liable surely? Just like they aren't if you get your handbag stolen.

[xilddx]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1370857028' post='2106237']

Someone also told me that if a contractor falls off their own badly maintained ladder on your property, you're liable and can be sued? Is that right?

[/quote]

If I were you, I wouldn't bother listening to that 'someone' anymore.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370865829' post='2106480']
In my (shared) experience, most insurance is no less a gamble than taking your bass out to a gig. I don't have mine insured because the cost of it balanced against the actual likelihood of a payout makes is pretty pointless

Insurnace is about minimising risk and, in truth, after 33 years of gigging with only one potential claim, I would consider gigging without insurance to be no grave risk. Sensible precautions such as making sure the instrument isn't too accessible to sticky fingers and, number one, never actually letting it out of your (or a trusted bandmate's) sight pretty much cover it.
[/quote]

Yep . . .


[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370865829' post='2106480']
As for venues where there is a likelihood of trouble, why would I play there anyway
[/quote]

. . . and double yep.

[Dingus]

If this incident happened in Norfolk , don't be surprised if even after the poor chap manages to track the culprits down and take them to task , they use the " diminished responsibility due to inbreeding " defence in court . What you really need is for this woman to get involved :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnJnA_mt_UA

I'm sure if she was aware just how many great sounds you can get with that Wal preamp she would want to tear the culprits a new asshole .

[neepheid]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370866874' post='2106505']
If I were you, I wouldn't bother listening to that 'someone' anymore.
[/quote]

It didn't sound very plausible to me. Yay, I don't have to book a half price ticket on Virgin Galactic just yet

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1370870634' post='2106604']
If this incident happened in Norfolk , don't be surprised if even after the poor chap manages to track the culprits down and take them to task , they use the " diminished responsibility due to inbreeding " defence in court . What you really need is for this woman to get involved :

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnJnA_mt_UA[/media]

I'm sure if she was aware just how many great sounds you can get with that Wal preamp she would want to tear the culprits a new asshole .
[/quote]

Like it!

[4 Strings]

I don't see why this is the Wal owner's fault? He did nothing wrong. Why should he expect anyone to touch is property without permission, especially something as personal and fragile as a musical instrument. It's a pain in the neck keeping things in cases at gigs where there's so little space, the cases get put away.

Going along the 'it takes a village to bring up a child' line, assuming the Wall owner was not right there at the time why did none of the punters stop these two idiots going anywhere near the gear? In reality there is more responsibility there than the landlord who was no doubt busy keeping the queue at the bar down.

Its the two idiots' fault, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find them, they need to be given the chance, now they've sobered up, to put things right.

[neepheid]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1370871786' post='2106624']
I don't see why this is the Wal owner's fault? He did nothing wrong. Why should he expect anyone to touch is property without permission, especially something as personal and fragile as a musical instrument. It's a pain in the neck keeping things in cases at gigs where there's so little space, the cases get put away.

Going along the 'it takes a village to bring up a child' line, assuming the Wall owner was not right there at the time why did none of the punters stop these two idiots going anywhere near the gear? In reality there is more responsibility there than the landlord who was no doubt busy keeping the queue at the bar down.

Its the two idiots' fault, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find them, they need to be given the chance, now they've sobered up, to put things right.
[/quote]

If it was an ideal world, what you say would be true, but it isn't. I'm not saying it's right or fair but in an environment where alcohol is impairing the judgement of those around you, you must adapt to that environment. To compound the problem that some people can't keep their hands to themselves, I would estimate the the people around the incident would be reticent to get involved for fear of receiving abuse, or getting the wrong end of the stick and experiencing the embarrassment of attempting to stop the rightful owner or a trusted associate from picking it up. Heads down, nothing to do with me, mate. To say or expect otherwise is naive in my opinion and therefore there is a (small) element of blame to be put on the owner if they expected their stuff to be respected by drunk people, or for drunk people to come to his assistance/rescue. Also I do not share your belief that these idiots will be easy to track down and even if you did find them, while your adherence to a due process is commendable I would be very surprised if you extracted anything but slopey shouldered feigned ignorance at best or worse, outright abuse out of them.

You may find me cynical but for the record, I would love to live in a utopian world where people kept their irrelevant hands to themselves. I just can't see it happening.

Edited June 10, 2013 by neepheid

[TimR]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1370857028' post='2106237']
Well, I find it wholly disgusting. I stopped working behind bars because of changes in the licensing laws which basically passed a lot of the blame for patrons' drunkenness onto the staff. We don't pour it down their throats! We had a loosely defined duty of care and we stopped serving someone who is out of it, but who's to stop someone buying a drink for some poor SOB who is already legless then falls over and splits their head open? Now that's our fault? Up yours. I quit.

...
[/quote]

I think you'll find that's always been the case. Unfortunately the venues got bigger and stopped thinking about the law and started thinking about profits. All that happened was the council, and police got fed up with clearing up the mess and started to come down harder on venues.

Back on topic - The two idiots should be easy to trace - just go back to the pub next time there's a live band on, they shouldn't be too far away if the locals knew their first names.

Edited June 10, 2013 by TimR

[neepheid]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1370873947' post='2106664']
I think you'll find that's always been the case. Unfortunately the venues got bigger and stopped thinking about the law and started thinking about profits. All that happened was the council, and police got fed up with clearing up the mess and started to come down harder on venues.
[/quote]

I respectfully disagree and at the risk of further thread derailment would like to retort. This came to pass in the most recent iteration of licensing law changes (in Scotland at least) with the necessity for Personal License Holders, spot checks by Police and Licensing Officials and other such guff. I also find the wide brush you're tarring with which suggests that all venues (and by extension all staff) are like that, having worked in the trade, somewhat offensive. I have never sold alcohol to anyone I judge to be worse for wear, just the same as I've never sold alcohol to anyone who in my estimation is under 18 and lacks the requisite proof to the contrary. Profits are irrelevant, I don't like cleaning up blood and vomit. I didn't need an additional burden of responsibility and misplaced, disproportionate consequences/repercussions of errors of judgement to tell me that. I know that there are venues who push their staff to sell, sell, sell and surprise, surprise they're the ones with the police vans outside them every weekend. But we all get it in the neck because the powers-that-be use as wide a brush as you are using right now.

[TimR]

Indeed. I think you'll find I specifically mentioned the big venues. It has always been illegal to sell to or attempt to buy for someone who is drunk.
You only need a personal licence for the manager so the big chain pubs can move staff around and not have to license one person to a particular premises. Maybe (forbid the thought) big venues are trying to protect their managers by ensuring the person at the point of sale has more responsibilty.