Adjusting stage volume going through the PA

[thebassman]

A question for the sound engineers or maybe experienced stage types.

I had the opportunity last weekend to play a great gig at a beer festival.
It was nice to have a decent stage and sound engineers, playing in a marquee.
I don't get the chance very often, so I am not too clued up on DI etc.
The engineer told me to turn down on stage and took an XLR out of the back of my gb Shuttlemax 9.2, i was plugged into my mesa 2x12. There were also 2 guitar amps mic'd up.

All was good on stage for sound check volume wise. I wasn't coming through the monitors at all, but this was ok as I had my own amp for monitoring. The guitars and vocals were coming through the monitor mix.

Anyway about half way through the gig one of my guitarists decided he wasn't loud enough so he turned his amp up. the mix through the monitors was then really loud, I really struggled to hear myself. I couldn't contact the sound engineer as we were playing 1 long 90 minute set.

So my question is, if I had turned my amp master volume up on stage so I could hear myself, would this effect the FOH mix, or is this mix only effected by the gain stage of the amp.

Just checked and I was on the post EQ setting.

As I said I'm not too sure how the DI set up works.

Any ideas? I have another big outdoor gig at a car show coming up and want to understand more about it.

Cheers

Thebassman

Edited June 9, 2013 by thebassman

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

When the guitar player turned up that should have affected both the mains and monitors, so the engineer should have noticed it. You should have just asked him to turn that monitor feed down between songs. Turning up your amp may or may not affect the volume in the PA, depending how the DI works in your amp. Some are pre-master, some are post-master, some are switchable. Your owners manual will say.

[wateroftyne]

I'm fairly sure the post DI on that head is pre-master, so you could have turned it up without affecting the feed to the desk.

However, it might have started a volume war - a spiral where everyone turns up gradually.

Your guitarist was better off asking for a bit in his monitor instead...

[Adrenochrome]

Bad guitarist. As WOT said, your master volume shouldn't affect the level sent via the DI, however boosting frequencies on your EQ probably would increase the level of the signal.

[thebassman]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1370832150' post='2106095']
When the guitar player turned up that should have affected both the mains and monitors, so the engineer should have noticed it. You should have just asked him to turn that monitor feed down between songs. Turning up your amp may or may not affect the volume in the PA, depending how the DI works in your amp. Some are pre-master, some are post-master, some are switchable. Your owners manual will say.
[/quote]


[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1370841611' post='2106100']
I'm fairly sure the post DI on that head is pre-master, so you could have turned it up without affecting the feed to the desk.

However, it might have started a volume war - a spiral where everyone turns up gradually.

Your guitarist was better off asking for a bit in his monitor instead...
[/quote]
[quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1370849848' post='2106153']
Bad guitarist. As WOT said, your master volume shouldn't affect the level sent via the DI, however boosting frequencies on your EQ probably would increase the level of the signal.
[/quote]

Thanks for all your input guys.

I did have a read through my manual but i couldn't see anything in there about pre and post master. All it said was pre and post EQ. It might just be me not knowing what i'm looking for.

I agree it's not a good idea to just all start turning up on stage, that's not going to help anyone, just make us all deaf. I didn't touch my volume, I just stepped farther away from the monitor and closer to my amp, so i could try and hear what i was playing. That was one of the problems we were both sharing the same monitor.

I did try and get the engineers attention between songs, but it was very busy and he was a long way away.

cheers

thebassman

[chris_b]

Always introduce yourself to the sound guy, and get his name when you meet. If he's not paying attention shout at him through the mic, by name, until you have his undivided attention.

Tell him what you want.

Keep telling him until you're happy.

At the end, tell the guitarist he's a dick!

[chris_b]

.... also play at your normal stage volume. I play loud enough to need earplugs, but not loud enough to strip paint off walls; I have [i]never[/i] been asked to turn down by a sound guy.

If you have to turn up do it.

You worry about your job, not his. It's the sound guy's job to keep up with what's happening on stage.

[Bassman Steve]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1370868625' post='2106543']
At the end, tell the guitarist he's a dick!
[/quote]

............. anyway

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1370869149' post='2106559']
.... also play at your normal stage volume. I play loud enough to need earplugs, but not loud enough to strip paint off walls; I have [i]never[/i] been asked to turn down by a sound guy.

If you have to turn up do it.

You worry about your job, not his. It's the sound guy's job to keep up with what's happening on stage.
[/quote]

...unless the OP genuinely was too loud. Sometimes there's just no need for it.

If it's something the OP does on autopilot, how is he going to know unless someone tells him?

[dincz]

Just checked the block diagram in the Shuttlemax manual and yes, it is pre-master, so you can tweak away without affecting the DI out.

[Dad3353]

It should be clearly understood, and goes with the job (or hobby...) that the purpose of the sound-check (balance...) is to check the sound, and get the balance right, on stage as FOH. Once that's been achieved, no-one radically changes their sound, if it hasn't been agreed during the balance session. Some numbers are quiet, or there's a 'hot' solo to play..? Get it sorted during sound check. A number with fuzz, where you normally play clean..? Inform the PA tech; he'll know how to adjust when the moment comes.
Anyone not playing by these simple rules needs educating. In extreme cases, this education may take a more medical line, but should not induce pain unnecessarily, except in special cases (often Marshall stacks, but not always...).
Hope this helps; show it to your band mate, when he gets out of hospital.

[stingrayPete1977]

I always go for pre on the di and leave my bass eq controls alone once we are playing other than cutting some treble on my bass if I'm using a pick, saves the sound engineer constantly having to adjust his end anyway. If it's a marquee I also tend to go for a sound that cuts through for me to hear rather than what I would consider a good bass sound from my rig, hopefully the sound engineer has mixed me a juicy sound out front from my fairly flat pre eq stingray signal

[stingrayPete1977]

Btw I have the same amp as the OP, brilliant they are!

[thebassman]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1370875011' post='2106690']
Btw I have the same amp as the OP, brilliant they are!
[/quote]

Haha, I know, I was hoping you might comment Pete. I am really living this amp with my Stingray.

I did initially setup up at normal rehersal/ gig volume, so wasn't overly loud on stage. The sound guy asked me to turn down a bit as he said we had good monitor support. Things did sound good at sound check and also up until about half way through the gig.

I guess I just need to learn to be more vocal with the band and sound engineers. I'm not really used to having the luxury of sound engineers.

It's good to know too that I can tweak my volume on stage if I am struggling to hear myself.

Cheers for all the replys guys, I new this was the right place to ask the question.

Thebassman

[mike257]

The guitarist will have been miced up, so when he's turned up its affected the level hitting the desk.

I don't know of any bass amps where the DI level is affected by the master volume as that would render it pretty useless in the situation you describe.

Turning up your input gain and pre-volume would affect the DI level but your master should be safe to adjust. Alternatively you could use universal sound engineer sign language - point at your bass, point up in the air, he turns up your level in the monitors. Winner!

[stingrayPete1977]

Stingray-Shuttlemax-2x12 cab=

[thebassman]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1370893903' post='2107146']
Stingray-Shuttlemax-2x12 cab=
[/quote]

+1

[JTUK]

The whole point of a sound check is to set the volume levels for the set... and it bad form to turn up thru the gig as this prompts
everyone else to reset their volume..and you can guess where that leads..
As Chris says, explain to the gtr what he did and why it isn't helpful..
The engr may recover and adjust...but you wont likely know until it is too late and the mix may have been blown by then.

You should play the soundcheck as you mean to play the set...there is no point in the drums playing light at sound check and then smashing hell out of the
kit when the set starts asthat defeats the check.
It takes discipline to trust the sound check and not wind it up from the backline...and this is why you don't ideally need a signal chain that you can increase the gain on..
This discipline is more critical when you don't know the engr and crew..

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='thebassman' timestamp='1370815848' post='2106027']
A question for the sound engineers or maybe experienced stage types.

I had the opportunity last weekend to play a great gig at a beer festival.
It was nice to have a decent stage and sound engineers, playing in a marquee.
I don't get the chance very often, so I am not too clued up on DI etc.
The engineer told me to turn down on stage and took an XLR out of the back of my gb Shuttlemax 9.2, i was plugged into my mesa 2x12. There were also 2 guitar amps mic'd up.

All was good on stage for sound check volume wise. I wasn't coming through the monitors at all, but this was ok as I had my own amp for monitoring. The guitars and vocals were coming through the monitor mix.

Anyway about half way through the gig one of my guitarists decided he wasn't loud enough so he turned his amp up. the mix through the monitors was then really loud, I really struggled to hear myself. I couldn't contact the sound engineer as we were playing 1 long 90 minute set.

So my question is, if I had turned my amp master volume up on stage so I could hear myself, would this effect the FOH mix, or is this mix only effected by the gain stage of the amp.

Just checked and I was on the post EQ setting.

As I said I'm not too sure how the DI set up works.

Any ideas? I have another big outdoor gig at a car show coming up and want to understand more about it.

Cheers

Thebassman
[/quote]

Your gtr is an ass (sorry for the slang). Tell him he can never do that again, once sound check is finished you shouldn't touch the dials on the amp again unless you know exactly what you're doing. This could ruin FOH mix, stage mix and can even cause some bleeding from the backline to the audience wich will affect overall sound. The gtr player should have backed up a bit to hear his guitar better or should have asked for a bit more guitar on the monitor. Raising level on a mic'ed amp results in a raise of volume on the amp, monitor and PA...

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1370892077' post='2107090']
The guitarist will have been miced up, so when he's turned up its affected the level hitting the desk.

I don't know of any bass amps where the DI level is affected by the master volume as that would render it pretty useless in the situation you describe.

Turning up your input gain and pre-volume would affect the DI level but your master should be safe to adjust. Alternatively you could use universal sound engineer sign language - point at your bass, point up in the air, he turns up your level in the monitors. Winner!
[/quote]

Mesa Walkabout has a DI affected by Master volume, i had to mod mine to have it pre-master.

[JTUK]

There is a reason why engrs will use their DI box on your amp...as you split the signal before the amp stage and take twiddling with it out of the equation....for the most part.

[Lozz196]

Guitarist turning up halfway through a gig. Now there`s a thing.

Similar happened to me in a band, but it was immediately after the sound-check. Said guitarist started twiddling his amp controls, so the sound engineer ordered us all back on stage, bellowing through his mic to this time "leave the f8cking controls alone after I`ve sound-checked you".

Quality. But the guitarist obviously still had to adjust whilst on stage, so the engineer just shut the mic on his cab off. There`s only so much you can do.

[stingrayPete1977]

People get upset about remarks about guitarists yet we have all met so many that do these things to earn the reputation, just like drummers that never stop f***ing drumming between songs etc!