Scales

[timmo]

Is there a point to constantly playing scales everyday? I just can`t see how it can help if you are learning to read music. I am told that every piece of music ever written used scales, but I just can`t see how, as not every piece of music I have ever seen has used solely Scales. Can anyone tell me how they are used in music please?

Edited June 11, 2013 by timmo

[Dad3353]

Good evening, Timmo...

Quite a good can of worms opening up here; this could be a lively debate...

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1370981198' post='2108330']Is there a point to constantly playing scales everyday?...[/quote]

Not really, unless you want to learn how to play scales.

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1370981198' post='2108330']...I just can`t see how it can help if you are learning to read music...[/quote]

If you want to learn to [i]read [/i]music, any and all written music is good. Scales, tunes, piano parts, vocal lines, random notes... All are good exercise for [i]reading[/i]. The more varied, the better; the less repetition, the better. Daily repetition of the same pieces is rather futile.

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1370981198' post='2108330']...I am told that every piece of music ever written used scales, but I just can`t see how, as not every piece of music I have ever seen has used solely Scales...[/quote]

You've answered your own question here. Most music, modern, popular, classical, trad. jazz, whatever, can be associated with the notion of 'scale', or rather, 'scales'. There is often more than one involved. There are many pieces that do not involve scales, however (John Cage is an obvious example, much 'musique concrète' ignores all 'normal' notions of pitch or timing..), the list is long. Scales are not music. Music is not scales.

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1370981198' post='2108330']...Can anyone tell me how they are used in music please?[/quote]

Too much of a task for little me, I'm afraid, and could run to several volumes. A simple notion could be nursery rhymes. 'Twinkle twinkle, little star' ring a bell..? Work out what the notes are, in any key, and compare to the major scale of that key. Then try harmonising a second melody to it. It's fun, I assure you. Good luck.

All of the above is, of course, imho. Hope this helps, others will be along to complete and/or contradict, I'm sure.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Dad3353

[Bilbo]

Playing scales and arpeggios is the best way of internalising the sounds of the notes, chords, their relationships, of learning the neck, of developing consistent attack, phrasing etc etc. There are other ways but scale use allows you to be systematic about it.

[timmo]

Thanks for the replies

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370988837' post='2108466']
Playing scales and arpeggios is the best way of internalising the sounds of the notes, chords, their relationships, of learning the neck, of developing consistent attack, phrasing etc etc. There are other ways but scale use allows you to be systematic about it.
[/quote]
So is it Pentotonic that are scales, and Arpeggios are something different? I thought they were both scales, but learned something. Also from the answer, it looks like I will have to continue playing them every day

[Bilbo]

There are more scales than pentatonics and, yes, arpeggios are something different.

[FuNkShUi]

Pentatonics are scales. But think of them as gapped, or incomplete scales. Easier if i give you an example to illustrate what i mean. We'll use the key of C for ease.
C major scale is C/D/E/F/G/A/B/C. The C major Pentatonic scale is C/D/E/G/A/C. So the pentatonic major scale is 5 notes (penta = 5), and the major scale is 7. With the pentatonic you leave out the F and the B, the 4th and 7th degrees of the scale. This is the case for all pentatonics of the major scale. Another example to show you what i mean..... E major is E/F#/G#/A/B/C#/D#, the E major pentatonic is the same, but you leave out the 4th and 7th degrees, so its E/F#/G#/B/C#.
An arpeggio is when you play the notes of a chord, individually, in a sequence. In effect its just a chord thats broken up. Hope this makes sense to you. Im sure someone with more knowledge than myself will be along shortly to clarify any of my points that i havent explained very well.

[Coilte]

Taken from the Carol Kaye web site :


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][color=#804000]"Why I teach chordal tones instead of unpractical scales is easy to understand: all music song forms are formed around CHORDS, and the bass player has to know how to funtion in chordal progressions, know what chordal notes to play and how to move them. For decades, I've had so many so-called "scale-trained" students come to me for lessons -- they can play a god-zillion amount of scales yet cannot play a simple chordal song at all. They don't even know a simple jazz blues, can't follow chords with their ears, and have NO IDEA of where their basic chordal notes are, cannot play a simple R35 arpeggio across the neck in *one* position. This belies how terrible those scale-teachers are! Some have even been taking lessons for 2-3 years and could never play ONE TUNE! Astounding and disgusting! I get them to playing a tune first lesson and many are walking good lines in the jazz chords on the blues....in one lesson! How? Simple, I teach them the basics of chordal notes, chordal scales (never note-scales). How chords move and function....and they are both angry and thrilled (angry at their past waste of time and money and thrilled to find out it was NOT THEM! That they did have talent, that they CAN learn!). Most of your bass lines are made up from chordal notes, for all styles, altho' the jazz styles require a more complete line of theory, it's still thinking in *chords*! Jazz improv (and walking lines) use mainly chordal notes with some lead-in chromatics, some b5s on the cyclic chords, and yes, even an occasional scale (rarely tho'!) for connecting the chordal notes. Pianists and trumpet players seem to overdo their jazz improv with a few scales, but if you really listen to the jazz patterns, they are formed from chordal notes, stacked triads, and the pivotal b5 chord substitutes: G7b5b9 (with the b9 replacing G), IS Db7. Db7b5b9 (with the b9 replacing the root) IS G7. No two other chords are like this. Slonimsky wrote a WHOLE BOOK based on this pivot b5 pattern use (and mistakenly named "Thesaurus of Scales"), no, it's not a "scale" book but a book of b5 patterns which even composers like John Williams, etc. Quincy Jones get some of their film screen compositional patterns from. Chordal tones of the pivotal b5 chords![/color][/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2][color=#804000]Carol"[/color][/size][/font]

Edited June 12, 2013 by Coilte

[Coilte]

Here is another link on the scales/chords topic :

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/"]http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/[/url]

[Hector]

Coilte, both posts make excellent points but are based on the (false) assumption that learning scales somehow stops you learning your chord tones?!

[matejj53]

You are not gonna be better reader playing scales you have to read be better a t reading. Play scales (right) and you will play scales better. You can improvise using scales and be musical while practicing. Practicing scales helped me allot and I am practicing them every day.

[Bilbo]

Yeah - you don't get to choose either/or

[Coilte]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1371031045' post='2108758']
Coilte, both posts make excellent points but are based on the (false) assumption that learning scales somehow stops you learning your chord tones?!
[/quote]

My knowledge of theory is fairly basic, so I am not really in a position to argue the point either way. All I know is what works for me. Carol Kaye's views on scales are well known, and are not always agreed with. In fairness, the "Study Bass" site does not say that learning scales stops you learning chord tones. It is geared towards beginners and emphasises the fact that while scales are very important to learn ( it would be silly to argue otherwise IMO), chord tones are equally important. Often, beginners claim to "know" their scales. This usually consists of being able to play them backwards, forwards, up, down, around and all over the neck, and this is good. However, ask them how chords are derived from scales, why some chords are major, some minor etc., or can they harmonise the major scale, and their eyes glaze over.

IMO, this is the point being made on the "Study Bass" site.

[fatback]

A Bilbo says, it's not 'either/or'.

I've been finding a composite approach very helpful. I take a scale and work on all the diatonic chords in the scale playing the arpeggios all over the neck. Then mess about with the chords as modes to get the sounds in my head.

I do think it's hugely useful to see chords as parts of a scale. My biggest limitation used to be playing in too 'angular' a way, playing through chords as they came along rather than leading into them, anticipating them and generally being a smoothy pants. Scales have really helped me do that.

[zero9]

Playing the same scales daily can be tedious to some.

For a more 'musical' (less tedious) approach it's worth learning / reading / practicing something like the Bach cello pieces adapted for bass guitar.

[Hector]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1371037873' post='2108896']
My knowledge of theory is fairly basic, so I am not really in a position to argue the point either way. All I know is what works for me. Carol Kaye's views on scales are well known, and are not always agreed with. In fairness, the "Study Bass" site does not say that learning scales stops you learning chord tones. It is geared towards beginners and emphasises the fact that while scales are very important to learn ( it would be silly to argue otherwise IMO), chord tones are equally important. Often, beginners claim to "know" their scales. This usually consists of being able to play them backwards, forwards, up, down, around and all over the neck, and this is good. However, ask them how chords are derived from scales, why some chords are major, some minor etc., or can they harmonise the major scale, and their eyes glaze over.

IMO, this is the point being made on the "Study Bass" site.
[/quote]

Yeah, exactly. Chords [b]and[/b] scales.

Chord tones are a really quick and powerful way to clearly outline the harmony, and much mileage can be gotten out of the idea of hitting prominent chord tones (3 and 7 primarily) on strong beats. In particular, guide tone lines are really useful for outlining harmony when changes go by at a gallop (google it, there's some good info out there). I would recommend this page for excellent practice material (from a very respected educator) based on chord tones and approaches to them: http://www.simonpurcell.com/Learning/index.htm

However, scales are every bit as useful, especially when thinking of the material to connect chord tones over longer passages or when a collection of chords implies a common scale over a larger section of a tune. Scale tones not in contained within chord tones act as a source of tension, and can create some very beautiful sound. Every mature improvisor should be able to consider and use these tones.

So yes, Fatback and Bilbo are spot on - a composite approach with an understanding of the relationship between chords and scales is the way forward. Practice your scales in: 2nds, 3rds, 4ths etc., in triads and 7th chords (loads of ways to do this, ascending or descending only, or asc then desc, or desc then asc, just for starters). This will help you understand scales as containing chords. Both will help you in terms of getting the music in your head and in your hands, as well as linking those two.

As an aside, I think it's important to be aware that using chord tones well takes about as much effort as using a more scale-based approach - there are no shortcuts here. Quite a lot of music education out there (e.g. total saturation of the market with different method books) is based on the idea that somehow we can work out a quick or easy way to become a great musician. It doesn't happen that way, it takes a metric ton of effort and then some. If you want to debate the nitty gritty about how to go about practising, you will get good at doing just that. If you want to be good at playing the bass, you should spend your time on that.

[Coilte]

[quote name='iceonaboy' timestamp='1371043938' post='2109025']
Bass chords are horrible and should be banned or kept in Spinal Tap tribute acts!
[/quote]

I think that in this thread, when we say "chords" it is generally accepted that we are talking about
arpeggios.

At least this is my interpretation.



To Hector :

I agree entirely.

[timmo]

I had a lesson today and had a good discussion on Pentatonics and Arpeggio`s and I understand their importance now.
Thanks all for the answers

[paul_5]

I've just spent 30 minutes on a 2 octave Ab scale going up and down in 4ths. I got up to 80bpm (using semiquavers) and now my hands feel as though they've really had a workout. This is true.


At the same time as this my ears got a good drilling, and my brain helped me to find the most comfortable positions to play certain modes off the parent scale. I reckon that [i]just[/i] playing scales is educational and worthwhile for more than dexterity /muscle development.


It also improved my intonation as I was playing my fretless. Tomorrow night - 'A major scale' 2 octaves.....

[jakenewmanbass]

If you want to play something eg. on a gig, it helps if you've played it before, scales, chords and any other devices melodic, rhythmic etc will all help.
If you adopt an approach that doubts from the outset the value of methodologies that are well established, and have allowed many great musicians to progress to great heights, then it might be observed that you may be hampering your chances of doing the same....

Edited June 17, 2013 by jakenewmanbass

[ambient]

[quote name='iceonaboy' timestamp='1371043938' post='2109025']
Bass chords are horrible and should be banned or kept in Spinal Tap tribute acts!
[/quote]

Not at all, a well voiced chord sounds awesome on a bass, especially a 6 string.

[paul_5]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1371509824' post='2114952']
Not at all, a well voiced chord sounds awesome on a bass, especially a 6 string.
[/quote]

Yup - 10ths on the E and G string are an excellent place to start. Then up past the 10th fret if you want to used a more closed voice.

[Hector]

Speaking of 10ths etc., Chris Fitzgerald over at TalkBass posted a really great little one-page article on two-note shell voicings and using them on bass to comp chord changes, which I've attached. It's basically either root + 7th or root +10th (although I find for some chords, root + 13 is a really nice alternative). Those sorts of larger intervals sound great on bass, see this video for an example, Janek is all about 10ths: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNVOgihBbig[/media])

If you want to get into three-note voicings (which I see as the practical maximum on a bass), you can start with R37 (which is the same as the type II voicing in the attached file, I call it a closed voicing) or R73 (which is type I, or open voicing). These tend to work above the 12th fret on the top 3 strings. If you want to try to walk + comp (as in this video: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIE9YlmAPNU[/media]) you can just use any of those voicings and drop the root an octave. Obviously, this is a bit easier on a 6 or a 5 with a high C, as you have more upper register to play with.

These shell voicings get a [b]lot[/b] of mileage - there's so many possibilities based in chord substitution e.g. playing a Db7 voicing where a G7 ought to be etc. This ties in a lot with the Barry Harris method of thinking about harmony. I would recommend working out all your 7th chord types (maj min dom dim) in closed and open - not a lot of work as it's all geometry so you know every key straight away!

From those basic shells, you can start playing rootless voicings to comp through changes like a guitar player. Typically, take off the root and add a tension note on top e.g. a 9 or 13, or even an 11 if you want. You can get some lush sounding voicings with altered tensions on dominant chords, b13 b9 and #11 are all quite delicious. If there's any interest, I could whip up a little lesson on these rootless voicings and some basic shapes, although all my material is basically from the first few of this amazing book, which I highly recommend: [url="http://www.shermusic.com/new/9781883217662.shtml"]http://www.shermusic...883217662.shtml[/url] That book gets really deep, and since I'm more an upright player these days I've only started scratching the surface. For all the voicings mentioned so far, Chris' rule of Type I leading to Type II and vice versa applies for really smooth voice leading.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Hector

[fatback]

Getting a 404 on that shermusic link, hector. Looks like it's incomplete.

All very interesting stuff.

[Hector]

Edited - seems to work now.

If not, it's Three Note Voicings and Beyond by Randy Vincent