Monckyman Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Thought this might be of interest to the cab versus P.A debate. http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/communication_amongst_aliens_musicians_are_from_jupiter_engineers_are_from_/live/P2/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Interesting, thanks. It's the sort of thing that should be fairly common knowledge, but for some reason isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Yep. Interesting stuff. I'm just happy if I can vaguely hear what's going on at most venues. I have a 28 foot lead so I can hear from an audience perspective on the sound check (and during the set on one song). If it sounds OK there I'm not to bothered about the monitoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Sorry, when I saw the thread title I thought of this: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGbcnZ-3CJQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGbcnZ-3CJQ[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I don't do these 5 bands a night gigs so I can’t comment on those. My bands only do proper gigs where we turn up and deal with the sound guy as an [i]honorary[/i] band member for the evening. 90% of the sound engineers I've met in the last 20 years have had good ears. But then none of the guys I play with have extreme sounds or styles so I guess we're pretty easy to work with. Anyway, for best results neither should be telling the other how to do their job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuNkShUi Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Good article, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) I've always found that a little common courtesy and treating engineers like people with an equal interest in making the night go well works wonders. If you make an enemy of crew by being in the least bit prima donna like then you get what you deserve, which may well make for an uncomfortable ride. I have met careless and arrogant crew, but rarely. Edited June 12, 2013 by jakenewmanbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowender Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Bottom line -- I go with whatever the sound guy recommends, but if it doesn't sound good to me, I don't want an argument about it. I don't want to hear that it sounds good "in the audience." To me, that's just saying that he wants his job to be easier when in fact , his job is to give me what I need and then make it sound as good as possible. The "tech" side of it is irrelevant to that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1371028366' post='2108708'] I've always found that a little common courtesy and treating engineers like people with an equal interest in making the night go well works wonders. If you make an enemy of crew by being in the least bit prima donna like then you get what you deserve, which may well make for an uncomfortable ride. I have met careless and arrogant crew, but rarely. [/quote] Exactly, Jake. I always find them and introduce myself and offer to buy them a drink if it's appropriate, they usually get free drinks on the house anyway so you'll rarely be out of pocket but the gesture can go a LONG way to making your gig a pleasant one. I always thank them afterwards too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1371029121' post='2108725'] Exactly, Jake. I always find them and introduce myself and offer to buy them a drink if it's appropriate, they usually get free drinks on the house anyway so you'll rarely be out of pocket but the gesture can go a LONG way to making your gig a pleasant one. I always thank them afterwards too. [/quote] Me too. Nearly all the sound people we have are nice and if treated with respect like a human being will help you sound better. There's only one we have at a certain venue once or twice a year who's a rude, know all little t**t. But we still smile and say great job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='Low End Bee' timestamp='1371030224' post='2108740'] Me too. Nearly all the sound people we have are nice and if treated with respect like a human being will help you sound better. There's only one we have at a certain venue once or twice a year who's a rude, know all little t**t. But we still smile and say great job. [/quote] Yeah we get the odd know-all / disorganised twat once in a while, but it's been rare over the past couple of years. For some reason I've had a few engineers who've been very wary of the POD when I've told them what it is. So now I just tell them I use my own DI box and all I need is an XLR direct to desk, they just say that's cool and give me an XLR, I got tired of explaining how the POD works, my own foolishness in thinking it was fairly common practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I've been both sides of this divide too. I was staggered to see a band at a sound check being told they couldnt turn their bass rig up enough to even hear it 'because it would ruin the FOH mix' in a pub gig a few weeks ago. This spotty oik was stood there trying to tell the bassist that his cheap nasty 112 vocal monitor would be better for bass than a Hartke LH500 into a BF 212t. As a result the bassist couldnt hear herself - I nearly went over and said I'd do sound for them there and then, the chap got a very average mix and the band played rather badly by their standards because, guess what, they couldnt hear themselves on stage at all - none of them, and they play complex stuff! I've also been stood on a stage pointing out to a band in a larger pub venue with a stage and huge PA, that two marshal full stacks and an Ampeg 810 all dimed were not really offering me any way to get the vocal across and were actually going to be turned off because they were dangerously loud, to be met by incredulous stares and "Its how I get my tone comments" - the drummer didnt respond because he was deaf in one ear and almost deaf in the other and if he wasnt watching you he couldnt lip read you to join the conversation..... Treat a sound engineer right and he will do his best within the confines of the acoustic (which he cant do much about), the kit available (which may well be massive overkill or just useless, or about right), and his skill (oh and there in lies the rub!) Treat a band like idiots or talk down to them and they will consider you a know it all pain in the butt; work with them - listen to their requests first and foremost - and make it apparent that you are trying to get the best experience possible in the space you're in with the kit you've all got and you will win over every band (except the occasional prima donna singer, and we have pitch shifters for those - 35 cents down in the FOH and not the monitors for the real a**eh***s - no not really, but it has been tempting on occasion!) and if you actually enable them to play a great gig they will remewmber you for years IME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 The first time I ever did a gig with a sound guy we were gob smacked & didn't know what to say to him (we were used to our own disorganised volume wars) So I sat with him & explained we need his advice & he set us up so well we sounded better than the main band.....After the gig I was having a beer with him & he let me know that the main act were stompy rock star types.....he made us sound better because we asked him for his help & advice. I've always gone out of my way ever since to be nice to the sound guys. I've never met a bad one yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371029108' post='2108724'] Bottom line -- I go with whatever the sound guy recommends, but if it doesn't sound good to me, I don't want an argument about it. I don't want to hear that it sounds good "in the audience." To me, that's just saying that he wants his job to be easier when in fact , his job is to give me what I need and then make it sound as good as possible. The "tech" side of it is irrelevant to that fact. [/quote] To be clear, it's the FOH sound guy's job to make it sound good for the audience, not his job to make it sound good to the band. We're there to entertain the audience and if it sounds bad to the audience because each member of the band wants to be louder than each other then you're in a really bad place. The backline or if you're lucky, the IEMs or monitor mix are for the band. It's the intermediate size gigs where the size of the backline will affect the FOH mix where all the problems occur. If you're doing one of those type of gigs or regularly doing them you need to asses whether your choice of backline is appropriate as it will be affecting 'your sound' as far as that's not what the audience are going to be hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371029108' post='2108724'] Bottom line -- I go with whatever the sound guy recommends, but if it doesn't sound good to me, I don't want an argument about it. I don't want to hear that it sounds good "in the audience." To me, that's just saying that he wants his job to be easier when in fact , his job is to give me what I need and then make it sound as good as possible. The "tech" side of it is irrelevant to that fact. [/quote] You are aware though, that there are a large number of factors that may mean it isnt actually possible to make it sound good for you and good for the audience, all sorts iof things to do with the venue acoustics that are outside the control of an engineered hired in on an hourly basis to fix, because they would need decent investment in sorting the acoustic out, or the quality of the PA monitoring, or the number of mics available or who knows (the players kit being utter tosh is also a nightmare). Given that , very common, scenario, which matters more, you, or the audience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowender Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1371033065' post='2108797'] To be clear, it's the FOH sound guy's job to make it sound good for the audience, not his job to make it sound good to the band. ................... [size=5][i]I couldn't disagree more. That's a terrible approach. If what the band is hearing sounds bad, how are they supposed to give a good performance? It's the band that is playing, not the soundman.[/i][/size] ......................... We're there to entertain the audience and if it sounds bad to the audience because each member of the band wants to be louder than each other then you're in a really bad place. .................................... [size=5][i]Who said anything about being louder? [/i][/size] ...................................... The backline or if you're lucky, the IEMs or monitor mix are for the band. ............................................ [size=5][i]But if I'm using my rig, it's going to sound better than a cheap monitor. Good soundmen know this.[/i][/size] [size=5][i]...........................[/i][/size] If you're doing one of those type of gigs or regularly doing them you need to asses whether your choice of backline is appropriate as it will be affecting 'your sound' as far as that's not what the audience are going to be hearing. ........................................................... [size=5][i]Sometimes you have to work with what you have, but whatever you work with, you need to hear yourself. It's like asking a guitar player to play a ripping solo with no overdrive -- but they'll be overdrive coming out of the P.A! Or asking a drummer to hit the drums softly and just turn him up in the mix. No...it doesn't feel the same. This is where some soundmen don't understand the mechanics of playing an instrument. Having said that, in most major venues I've played, it's never a problem. It's usually the slumbs in the clubs who are the clueless lots.[/i][/size] [/quote] ............................... Edited June 12, 2013 by Lowender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1371033065' post='2108797'] ....it's the FOH sound guy's job to make it sound good for the audience, [i]not his job to make it sound good to the band[/i].... [/quote] I'd disagree with the last part. He won't have a magic wand, but it is his job to give the band a good monitor mix on stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowender Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1371033657' post='2108807'] Given that , very common, scenario, which matters more, you, or the audience? [/quote] This is the major disagreement. It isn't a contest between me and the audience. It's me wanting to give the audience the best performance possible and I can't do that if my bass sounds like crap. Also, I've stepped into the audience and listened to mixes and simply disagree with what sounds better. So should the soundman's opinion carry more weight than mine? I do engineering and production as well. I'm not oblivious to what's a good sound. I don't want to make this out like I have a problem with soundmen. I almost never do. My point is just that some soundmen want to control the music and I don't think the musicians should let them if they honestly disagree. But this is all subjective. Without an actual situation to evaluate, it's impossible to say who would be right or wrong. Edited June 12, 2013 by Lowender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Very interesting link, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 If musicians have a big problem with how the sound engineer works, they are welcome to pay their own one to come to the gig with them. If your band doesn't suck, and you're not a dick, then they might even do it quite cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Ahh, the luxury of someone actually handling sound for you and being able to use monitors! I have to get the best out of my backline because that is the only source the punters will hear any bass from at all (unless a bit bleeds into my vocal mic but that'll be minimal). Same goes for the 2 guitars. Use a little old PA amp with all of FOUR inputs and all that goes into them are vocal mics. It's actually surprising what you can get away with when you strip it all back but I'd love to be able to have enough stage space to run my wedge monitor to check my vox.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371034512' post='2108824'] If musicians have a big problem with how the sound engineer works, they are welcome to pay their own one to come to the gig with them. If your band doesn't suck, and you're not a dick, then they might even do it quite cheap. [/quote] An important point, I feel. A band is best servedby a competent, dedicated engi, who knows what the band want as a sound, and knows the repertoire (for tweaking fx and such...). A good touring band should have an engi, and a lighter (I've done both...), and it makes an enormous difference to the public. If that's no possible (and I understand that it's not always the case...), then a band member who can communicate and guide the house engi is a blessing. Without this interface, it's up to the band to ask for what they need on stage, but the house engi will take care, as best he/she can, with FOH. Most do a good job, of course, but they won't necessarily know how to optimise for special needs. Just my tuppence-worth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1371033871' post='2108812'] I'd disagree with the last part. He won't have a magic wand, but it is his job to give the band a good monitor mix on stage. [/quote] That's the monitor sound man's job, not the FOH sound man's job. If it's the same guy AND you have time and the venue is big enough to have separate mixes fine. What the article is saying is that frequently what the artist wants to hear are different to what the audience wants to hear. What do I want to hear? I probably only need a touch of vocals and touch of guitar from my monitor, I need quite a lot of top end on my bass so I'm not buried in a wall of guitar. This is different to what the audience wants to hear. As I say, outside or big venues are usually Ok. As has been said get into a medium size club and the soundguy looks like a muppet. Why? Because you need to have much smaller backline to maintain the tone without the volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowender Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371034512' post='2108824'] If musicians have a big problem with how the sound engineer works, they are welcome to pay their own one to come to the gig with them. If your band doesn't suck, and you're not a dick, then they might even do it quite cheap. [/quote] There have been many times I would gladly not used a soundman. If you're a pro, you should know how to get a decent sound for playing in a pub! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1371027898' post='2108703'] I don't do these 5 bands a night gigs so I can’t comment on those. My bands only do proper gigs where we turn up and deal with the sound guy as an [i]honorary[/i] band member for the evening. 90% of the sound engineers I've met in the last 20 years have had good ears. But then none of the guys I play with have extreme sounds or styles so I guess we're pretty easy to work with. Anyway, for best results neither should be telling the other how to do their job. [/quote] Agree with this. We have a couple of multi bills this summer where the load in will be the issue... but we try and make all our sounds decent from the off so would not expect us to be hard to mix. If the kit sounds good and the general signals are good, then you aren't looking at much more than line-level. We will give the gig an easy mix number to start with should we not have enough time for a decent check and then it is fine tuning from there on. You can keep things simpler by putting the instruments in roughly the same place so you don't have a load of gear to move round and waste time getting signals into monitors that are all over the place. If time is an issue we would give the P.A a stage tech rider just to cut down basic stuff getting missed when time is very short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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