Musicians V Engineers

[Mog]

An interesting, if somewhat generalised read. People should realise that it goes both ways. A Noob should always listen to an experienced Engineer just as an Engineer with little experience should approach each artist/band/group before sound check and ask what mix and overall FOH sound they reqiure.

I always make a point of introducing myself to the tech before soundcheck and buying him at least one of his beverage of choice as way of saying thanks afterwards, regardless of how I felt the sound was.
On one occasion in a well known Midlands venue over here the engineer was a total noob and really didnt have much experience running a full rig. During soundcheck I noticed that he had a line running from my speaker output straight into the desk. The guy should have been honest with me and asked if I had a D.I. box (I always carry 2 BTW) but when I pulled him up he said he really didn't have much experience in venues of that size and had so many bad experiences with musicians that he didn't like to ask too many questions. Thats a sad state of affairs in my book. The chap was obviously keen to earn a living from being a Tech but was limited in his opportunities to actually get experience due to the attitude of musicians. I could have thrown a total hissy fit but instead I sat in with him at the desk to show him what little I know and he was thrilled. The guy even took notes and photos of the settings I used for one of the bands.

At the end of the day it's about mutual respect. Both parties have a job to do. If we can make their lives easier then both sides benefit.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Mog

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1371033871' post='2108812']
I'd disagree with the last part.

He won't have a magic wand, but it is his job to give the band a good monitor mix on stage.
[/quote]

Again, agree. The band needs to be able to put on its best performance and the sound coming back at them is a key part of that.
Of course, you do have to try and deliver come what may..and then have the post mortem, but the idea is to be able to hear everything...
If you have a mon mix to do that..then you have to give that the lead... if you have to do that via your backline, then you are starting off on the back foot somewhat, as the P.A is small and the venue is small...so you have stage bleed issues, potenially.

But there is no use having a fight about it if you put the sound in someones else's hands... you have to work together.
Whether you work together again, is something more in your control...and another issue.

We always have a chat with the engr, get him a beer or arrange food etc etc ...depending how much influence on that we have
but a beer/drink is a good start. Of course, I'd prefer it if he said Orange juice or anything non alcoholic as these can be long days.. :lol;
If we have a food rider/tab... we would invite them on it..but then if we get one..I expect the crew to be sorted as well.

Little things to get the event off on a decent footing..

[xilddx]

My drummer saw a metal band a couple of weeks ago at a small venue and (apart from the drums obviously) the whole band went direct, no amps and cabs on stage at all. They all had digital modeling floorboards and used monitors for on-stage sound. He said the band sounded fantastic.

[KevB]

Also never underestimate that if an experienced soundman is constantly hearing different bands in the same venue he'll have a far more initmate knowledge of any odd aspects of how the arrangement of that venue's fixtures and fittings can have on the FOH sound than you will if you've never played there before. Has to be a large element of trust on both sides.

[Mog]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1371038661' post='2108917']
Also never underestimate that if an experienced soundman is constantly hearing different bands in the same venue he'll have a far more initmate knowledge of any odd aspects of how the arrangement of that venue's fixtures and fittings can have on the FOH sound than you will if you've never played there before. Has to be a large element of trust on both sides.
[/quote]

Well said.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1371038396' post='2108910']
My drummer saw a metal band a couple of weeks ago at a small venue and (apart from the drums obviously) the whole band went direct, no amps and cabs on stage at all. They all had digital modeling floorboards and used monitors for on-stage sound. He said the band sounded fantastic.
[/quote]

Meshuggah? Regard them more as a sound dreadful, but its on purpose.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371039853' post='2108949']
Meshuggah? Regard them more as a sound dreadful, but its on purpose.
[/quote]

Don't think it was them mate, small venue, not a well known band.

[Lowender]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1371038661' post='2108917']
Also never underestimate that if an experienced soundman is constantly hearing different bands in the same venue he'll have a far more initmate knowledge of any odd aspects of how the arrangement of that venue's fixtures and fittings can have on the FOH sound than you will if you've never played there before. Has to be a large element of trust on both sides.
[/quote]

Interesting -- so I'll offer this point up...

If you're in a bad sounding room, (no soundman, just a gig) how much can you really "EQ" a bad room to sound good?

I've found that it makes almost no difference. I was a bandleader and brought and ran the PA to gigs for years and from to room I learned that the same EQ pretty much worked for that system no matter where we played. The sound of the room is the sound of the room. You just need to make sure there are no peaks. It ain't exactly rocket science. The same goes for a soundman. What is he really doing from room to room and band to band. Often, it's fiddling with knobs because he doesn't know what EQ sounds good in the first place. Whenever I've played major halls, the soundcheck took just minutes because the soundmen knew the room, knew what EQ each instrument needed and knew the equipment. It all changes anyway when the band breaks down for the next act or when people fill the room. Adjusting to that , should take a few seconds -- if you know what you're doing.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Lowender

[51m0n]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371034043' post='2108813']
This is the major disagreement. It isn't a contest between me and the audience. It's me wanting to give the audience the best performance possible and I can't do that if my bass sounds like crap.
[/quote]
I completely understand that, but there are (many) venues out there that through whatever set of circumstances outside of the enginners control mean this is not actually possible. Its beyond the skill of any engineer with the tools available in that space to give you what you want and what you want the audience to get at the same time. So, who would you rather had the better deal given that only one half of the equation can be satisfied?

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371034043' post='2108813']
Also, I've stepped into the audience and listened to mixes and simply disagree with what sounds better. So should the soundman's opinion carry more weight than mine? I do engineering and production as well. I'm not oblivious to what's a good sound.
[/quote]

Then get your own engineer, have him learn what you want to sound like out front, pay him good money and he will ensure that that is what you sound like out front. However this may mean in some venues he has to compromise your stage sound even more. Its not ideal, its reality, the answer is not to go back to those venues until the circumstances change (some meaningful acoustic treatment, a rig upgrade, rockinghorse poo, whatever).

It may be a good idea to go the IEM route even....

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371034043' post='2108813']
I don't want to make this out like I have a problem with soundmen. I almost never do. My point is just that some soundmen want to control the music and I don't think the musicians should let them if they honestly disagree. But this is all subjective. Without an actual situation to evaluate, it's impossible to say who would be right or wrong.
[/quote]

You control what goes into the PA, they control what comes out of it. Work together and communicate clearly and assuming everyone is on the same wavelength and has the tools to achieve the results you want (including a space in which it can be achieved) and everything is golden. Your problem appears to be in that you are playing places that for some reason(s), be it the engineers skill or the band and the engineers communication abilities, the amount of time available to realise those requireements or some other variable is not allowing you to get what you want.

Its easy to simply blame the engineer, but its not always the engineers fault. Unless you've doen some live engineering (like a few months each in at least three different venues) it can be really hard to see how much the venue itself can make it hard.


Having said all that I agree there are also some really poor 'engineers' out there, who really do know very little, and a frightneing number in brighton at the moment who appear to believe that the band hearing each other is incidental to good performance.....

Edited June 12, 2013 by 51m0n

[Lozz196]

The last gig we did where everything was going FOH I just played through my Zoom B3, DI`d straight to FOH, no amp. The sound engineer put the bass through the monitors and was literally amazed when I asked him to turn it down. It sounded great, but the vocs are the most important things in the monitors for our band, so less bass thanks. I could tell he didn`t often get requests to lessen things through the monitors.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1371045601' post='2109041']
The last gig we did where everything was going FOH I just played through my Zoom B3, DI`d straight to FOH, no amp. The sound engineer put the bass through the monitors and was literally amazed when I asked him to turn it down. It sounded great, but the vocs are the most important things in the monitors for our band, so less bass thanks. I could tell he didn`t often get requests to lessen things through the monitors.
[/quote]

I love working that way mate! It's so portable, convenient, controllable, and none of that massive bass flapping about on the stage. It's more akin to hearing your band on stage through a loud hifi, but more lofi That said, with London Zulu I will use a house bass rig if there is one because it's very dancey and those long repetitive pumping basslines are nicer to play when there's some low end on the stage. But for anything else, it's strictly POD and monitors only, for guitar and bass.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371044591' post='2109028']
Interesting -- so I'll offer this point up...

If you're in a bad sounding room, (no soundman, just a gig) how much can you really "EQ" a bad room to sound good?

I've found that it makes almost no difference. I was a bandleader and brought and ran the PA to gigs for years and from to room I learned that the same EQ pretty much worked for that system no matter where we played. The sound of the room is the sound of the room. You just need to make sure there are no peaks. It ain't exactly rocket science. The same goes for a soundman. What is he really doing from room to room and band to band. Often, it's fiddling with knobs because he doesn't know what EQ sounds good in the first place. Whenever I've played major halls, the soundcheck took just minutes because the soundmen knew the room, knew what EQ each instrument needed and knew the equipment. It all changes anyway when the band breaks down for the next act or when people fill the room. Adjusting to that , should take a few seconds -- if you know what you're doing.
[/quote]

A bad sounding room is mostly a time domain problem - that is, it is caused by sound waves being reflected (or not) off the various surfaces and interacting with in different ways with the sound waves coming directly from the stage/PA. A frequency domain solution (EQ) can only go so far to fixing it and can only do so in some locations - ie what sounds like it's fixing the problem at the desk may well be making it worse in other parts of the room.

Like all solutions that treat the symptoms rather than the cause it can never completely fix the problem.

[51m0n]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1371053404' post='2109216']
A bad sounding room is mostly a time domain problem - that is, it is caused by sound waves being reflected (or not) off the various surfaces and interacting with in different ways with the sound waves coming directly from the stage/PA. A frequency domain solution (EQ) can only go so far to fixing it and can only do so in some locations - ie what sounds like it's fixing the problem at the desk may well be making it worse in other parts of the room.

Like all solutions that treat the symptoms rather than the cause it can never completely fix the problem.
[/quote]

This.

Eq can be used to tune feedback out of a system, and that is very different from room to room, and PA to PA.

Eqing a band can be done a ton of different ways though, just go listen to all the entries in the Mix competition, everyone has the exact same set of stems, the same performance, in the same space to work with, every mix sounds different, some radically so, a huge amount of which is down to how well the mixer understands eq, how well they can use that tool to achieve their preferences. Its by no means all there is to making a mix but it is one of the big tools of mixing (alongside compression and ambience).

A good engineer can make a band sound crystal clear, the same band mixed by someone who doesnt know what they are doing will be a mess, with build up in frequency ares that is downright painful as often as not.

My biggest single issue with sound engineers is all the volume wars willy waving they like to go through, "Ooooh my new Supraflex 9001 amp will put out 15Kw into my subs, [i]so I must use all that power[/i] even in this far too small venue, because thats a great experience for the punters, and all the girls love a soundguy with a rig that will pound them until they lose control of their bowels.... "

Tw*nt!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='fumps' timestamp='1371031561' post='2108771']
The first time I ever did a gig with a sound guy we were gob smacked & didn't know what to say to him (we were used to our own disorganised volume wars) So I sat with him & explained we need his advice & he set us up so well we sounded better than the main band.....After the gig I was having a beer with him & he let me know that the main act were stompy rock star types.....he made us sound better because we asked him for his help & advice.

I've always gone out of my way ever since to be nice to the sound guys. I've never met a bad one yet
[/quote]
I find this works with most walks of life, building inspectors love it if you leave an area unfinished because you're waiting for his/her advice on a lintel or something, I guess we all enjoy our jobs more if we feel appreciated including sound crew, door staff, bar staff etc

Edited June 12, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[amnesia]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1371039914' post='2108951']
Don't think it was them mate, small venue, not a well known band.
[/quote]


Left for Red? Valous? Both from the Midlands and use board / PA monitor guitar rigs.

[Wolverinebass]

[color=#222222]I generally hate sound engineers. All of them have tended to make my gig experiences less enjoyable than they could have been. I used to use a pod but then I used to get undermixed despite how nice/polite I was about hearing myself properly. Plus they quite often used to do frequency pans on me. Xillddx says there is more control. In an ideal world, yes there is and it's the perfect solution. Except when people set out their stall to screw with you, because [i]they[/i] have the control over you. Even after the original Bass Pod being more than 10 years old most of these lobotomized “sound guys” still don’t know what to do with it. I put that in inverted commas as I know that there are good ones. Pity I’ve only ever met 4 of them.[/color]

[color=#222222]Another belter I find is what happened to me last time I played up London. At this particular gig I was assured that there would be an Ashdown amp as part of the house backline so bringing my own gear was uneccessary. “A 4x10?” I ask. “Yes” came the reply, so I presume that you can see where this is going. I get there and it's a 40W Perfect Ten. Great. That’ll be punchy if I was playing in a matchbox.[/color]

[color=#222222]The band before us were playing dual guitars through 2 4x12s at devastating volume and both of these cabs were mic’d. When I asked the sound engineer if he'd mic this miniscule practice amp, he said "no" because “the bass would spill all over the stage” and that this 1x10 behemoth was "more than enough" for me to hear myself. The bloke despite my increasingly agitated and progressively less polite assertions that this was utter bollocks refused to budge, nor let me put it up on a table so that it’d be closer to ear level. Then just to mess me up even more I hasten to add he then didn't put my DI'd bass through the PA into the wedge. So I couldn’t hear anything. [/color]

[color=#222222]To make matters worse, after 3 songs of silence when I looked down at my fingers he turned the bass on but without any content under 350Hz. Even if you don’t like Alembics, imagine that your bass sound was reduced to that of a clicky banjo because some moron didn’t know what he was doing and was exercising his own power trip. I was beyond any level of enraged and were it not for the timely intervention of a few of my close friends I was going to probably have done some serious physical harm to this imbecile.[/color]

[peteb]

I have a fair few mates who are sound engineers and the first thing to note is that there is a big difference between the guys who regularly get the decent gigs and some of the muppets who work on the smaller rigs. Unfortunately, Wolverine's experience is not unique and even some of the more capable ones seem to have a bit of a chip on the shoulder towards musicians, especially those in support bands.

You don't need to ply engineers with beer and praise to get the best out of them, what you need is to appear to be credible and have a realistic idea of what you want from them! Turning up with the right gear and knowing how to use it helps a lot, as does appreciating what they have to do to get a good sound out front. In return they should help you get a decent onstage sound at a suitable volume to enable you put in a good performance, which after all is why the audience have come to the show!

[xilddx]

[quote name='amnesia' timestamp='1371072687' post='2109596']
Left for Red? Valous? Both from the Midlands and use board / PA monitor guitar rigs.
[/quote]
I've honestly no idea mate, he didn't say who they were, but it was in London. He did say they weren't playing Rickenbackers so it can't have been the Beatles.

[Skol303]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1371028366' post='2108708']I've always found that a little common courtesy and treating engineers like people with an equal interest in making the night go well works wonders. If you make an enemy of crew by being in the least bit prima donna like then you get what you deserve...[/quote]

Sound engineers and restaurant waiters share one thing in common... immense potential for revenge when ill-treated

[Ian Savage]

Can't believe no-one's mentioned 'having a tech rider' yet. One of THE biggest things you can do to get the soundman onside, just a simple stage plot and a vague (or even totally specific) idea of what you want in each monitor, ideally emailed/sent to the venue/promoter well in advance (but much of the time that won't make it to the sound guy, so carry hard copies as well). If he can start dialling in a monitor mix close to what you're used to before you even start playing, and hopefully even has an idea of your lineup and requirements in advance the show has the potential to run that much smoother.

Something like this, only maybe not so 'stream-of-conciousness': [url="http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/lust-laughs?page=3"]http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/lust-laughs?page=3[/url]

[Lozz196]

I find it`s best to have a chat with the sound-guy, tell him the sound you`re going for, and when sound-checking your instrument tell him precisely what needs altering. In one of my bands we have 2 basses, and it`s imperative that each sounds different to the other, so we just say "up a bit/down a bit" on the various eq areas until there`s separation.

In an ideal world we`d all love to hear ourselves crystal clear, but with 5 bands on a bill nights, give the sound-guys some credit - they`re pushed to get anything for the bands. It`s these kind of nights, where you have 15min sound-checks, plus a venue enforcement on sharing gear that are to blame. A lot of the not hearing yourself issues are down to not using your own gear - we probably can hear ourselves, but due to it being different amps, it still doesn`t sound right.

All that said, so long as I can hear the lead vocals, and the drummer says he can hear the bass, I`m not too fussed. If it sounds good out front but cr*p on-stage, that`s preferable to the other way round.

[mike257]

Its all about communication, and an element of compromise and understanding too. When I'm mixing a band (or 5) I make a point of establishing who needs what where before anyone plays a note in soundcheck and doing my best to give that to them. I'll also (especially if its not a typical guitar/bass/drums line up) have a quick chat about how they should be balanced out front and what the important bits are. If you can't give the band exactly what they want because of the room/gear etc, they're usually more inclined to compromise when they can see you're doing your best to make it work.

As a player, I've always tried to be rehearsed enough that I could get by with the bare minimum of monitoring. My last serious touring band were a four piece with two vox and were often soundchecked in ten mins because we could get by with the basics and just got on with it. Whilst it's nice to have great, clear stage mixes, the experiences being shared all across this thread and others tell me that its better to be prepared for the worst and to be able to cope without - treat anything more as a luxury.

[pete.young]

We are almost at the point of not having any backline. The only exception is my Puma 110, which goes on a stand so the drummer and I can hear it, but it's not loud enough to affect the FOH mix.

We got this way as a result of a gig in a long thin building, where I couldn't hear my bass amp standing next to it, but it was massively loud 30 feet into the room. We're now at the point where the vocals go through one pair of monitors, keyboard player has a second mix through a floor monitor and the guitarist has in-ear monitors.

Everything goes through the PA for FOH and we have a sound engineer/photographer who sorts the mix out.

I love it. It's totally controllable and has drastically reduced the noise on stage. We have a very quiet drummer anyway, and now that we no longer have a massive valve guitar amp to compete with we go home from gigs without any tinnitis or deafness.