Advice on recording chain for DI-ing bass into a DAW (high quality required!)

[tedmanzie]

I'm running Logic studio using a Motu 828mkII a/d and a Focusrite Octopre MkII.
I also have an Eventide 7600 which i could feasibly use as an a/d in for its high quality converters, but not tried this yet.

I can plug my bass (Fender Precision) straight in to the Focusrite, or I can use the DI output from my Markbass LM3.

I'm wondering on what options pro's use in the studio and if I can improve my recording chain.

I've heard of people going through an Avalon preamp (U5?). Also putting it through a high rack quality compressor on the way in.

I don't really want to mic the cabinet.

Tips appreciated

Cheers
Ted

[paul_5]

There aren't any hard or fast rules on this, I tend to run my bass into a valve DI and record that on its own channel, then take another feed from the DI onto my pedalboard (sometimes then to an SWR head and DI that) into another channel in ProTools. Gives greater flexibility for mixing but on the other hand might make mixing more complicated.

[BigRedX]

My favoured approach is to use a Mic on the best sounding speaker in the cab (normally the one furthest from the port) and a second DI directly from the bass guitar itself. These signals should be fed into something reasonably transparent, or benign tonally before going into the A-D converters.

Ideally the sound of the Mic'd cab will be already pretty close to what I want already and any corrective or creative EQ and compression can be applied "in the box" at the mixing stage.

The DI from the bass is a safety which can be used either for re-amping or with amp/speaker sims in the box if it turns out that the Mic'd speaker is no longer the sound that is required once the rest of the overdubs have been tracked.

If you really don't want to Mic the speakers then use a DI as far down the signal path of your rig as possible - normally the DI on your amp or a line-out if the is no DI. If you have a DI box that will take it, and your amp isn't too high powered, you could try DI'ing from a speaker output.

IMO recording is all about experimentation and finding out what works best for you and the song you are recording.

Edited June 15, 2013 by BigRedX

[tedmanzie]

Thanks for the replies. I don't have a huge selection of mics which is why I wanted to avoid mic-ing the cab but maybe my Sure Beta52 kick drum mic might work. Other than that i've got SM57 and SM58 s.
Valve DI box sounds interesting, I know some DI boxes get pretty exotic.
As do specialist mic pre-amp channel strips...
I'll do some testing, might post the results up here for comment if I'm feeling brave.

[BigRedX]

Kick drum mics tend to have a peak that is designed to flatter the drum sound and if you use it on the bass guitar cab, you may find yourself trying to EQ out this in order to get some clarity between the bass guitar and the kick drum.

If you can I'd stick all three mics up on the cab and record their signals simultaneously and then go with the one you like the sound of.

I'm always in two minds about adding units in the recording signal chain that add a lot of their own "character" to sound. Ideally the sound coming out of the speakers in your rig should be close to what you want in the first place, so there shouldn't be any need to add anything else (at least until you come to mixing).

Edited June 15, 2013 by BigRedX

[paul_5]

Of those 3 mics I'd go for the 57 on the best sounding cone and DI as well. I'd do some test recording before actual 'takes' to check that the microphone channel isn't out of phase with the DI - you'll know if they are on playback; when you listen to them individually they should sound OK (but different from each other), but when you play them together the sound will start to sound 'thin', like some of the sound is missing...

[MiltyG565]

[hijack]

But how would you deal with the phase issues if you were going into something like an Apogee Duet? I was thinking of recording this way - DI and mic at cab - but how do you solve the phase issues? Is there something in the Apogee to sort it?

[tedmanzie]

you would sort out phase issues in the DAW. what are you using?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1371332786' post='2112758']
you would sort out phase issues in the DAW. what are you using?
[/quote]

Logic Pro 9

So it's not an issue as you can sort it out after you record?

[paul_5]

Move the mic around until it goes away! Seriously, move the mic.

Doing it in the DAW is possible by nudging the one of the tracks by a couple of milliseconds so that waveforms aren't cancelling each other out but I'm of the opinion that if you want it to sound right at the end, get it right at the start.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1371334378' post='2112776']
Move the mic around until it goes away! Seriously, move the mic.

Doing it in the DAW is possible by nudging the one of the tracks by a couple of milliseconds so that waveforms aren't cancelling each other out but I'm of the opinion that if you want it to sound right at the end, get it right at the start.
[/quote]

But how do you know where the phase issues come into it? I feel there's a massive chunk of information that i'm missing here! I understand what phase is and all, I just don't understand how you can apply that you some actual tangible thing.

[paul_5]

You'll know it when you hear it - kinda like somebody took one of the sliders on a graphic EQ and slid it all the way to the top - then cut most of the rest. It just means that the two versions of the same signal are crossing each other and part of one wave is cancelling out part of another.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1371335100' post='2112787']
You'll know it when you hear it - kinda like somebody took one of the sliders on a graphic EQ and slid it all the way to the top - then cut most of the rest. It just means that the two versions of the same signal are crossing each other and part of one wave is cancelling out part of another.
[/quote]

Yeah, I understand that, but is there any kind of rule to say how far away from a speaker a mic should be so that there is no phase cancellation?

[tedmanzie]

you can invert the phase of a channel in logic, i think its in the 'gain' plugin.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1371337209' post='2112807']
you can invert the phase of a channel in logic, i think its in the 'gain' plugin.
[/quote]

Cheers! That'll come in handy for the next mix comp!

[51m0n]

Ok Mic and DI.
'Best' DI for bass is probably a REDDI.
Phase issue...

1 put DI and Mic channels up equal volume on the DAW
Watch the meter
Play the bass. Any note. Or crank the gain until noise is showing in the DAW meter.
Move the Mic
When the meter on the combined tracks is at its highest you are in phase

Time domain doesn't equate to phase quite either. Phasebug is a VST for adjusting phase, there must be something similar for Macs...

[51m0n]

Sm57 is fine combined with a DI....

[tedmanzie]

good advice thanks

[tedmanzie]

btw i've been reading about the REDDI and it has great reviews but that is [i]serious[/i] money for a DI !
but might be nice to run my analogue synths through too.... don't want to start GASing for a reddi! help...

[51m0n]

Too late