15" speaker cabs

[Chris Horton]

hi everyone,

I have placed a "wanted" advert for an Epifani , series 1, 8 ohm cab to go with my 210 or 410 cab.
I appreciate that the Epi series 1 cabs don't come up for sale that often so it got me thinking ........ What other lightweight 115 or 215 cabs should I check out ?

I use an Epifani UL502 amp and my main bass is an MTD 535.

Throw me your thoughts please
Cheers
Chris

[Mr. Foxen]

Mixing cabs is a bad plan. The reason it is a bad plan is that the sound of the combination is totally unpredictable, so as soon as you plan on mixing the cab with unspecific different cabs, you can't get any useful suggestions, because nobody can know how they will pair up, the sound isn't a combination of the souds of the two, its another sound again. Do you like the sound of the 10s you have but need louder? Get more the same. If you don't like the sound of them, get rid and get somehting you do like the sound of, then add more the same until loud enough.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371384013' post='2113139']
Mixing cabs is a bad plan. The reason it is a bad plan is that the sound of the combination is totally unpredictable, so as soon as you plan on mixing the cab with unspecific different cabs, you can't get any useful suggestions, because nobody can know how they will pair up, the sound isn't a combination of the souds of the two, its another sound again. Do you like the sound of the 10s you have but need louder? Get more the same. If you don't like the sound of them, get rid and get somehting you do like the sound of, then add more the same until loud enough.
[/quote]+1. In addition, the usual reason given for adding a fifteen is to get lower extension. The fact of the matter is that the average fifteen loaded cab goes no lower than the average ten loaded cab. As for output capability, the average 1x15 has less output capacity than the average 4x10.
Advertisements mixing 1x15 and 4x10 are ubiquitous, as is the use of that by many endorsers. Why? Ads are intended to sell product, as is supplying endorsers with what the company wants to sell. As to what companies want to sell, that's highly driven by what you want to buy. If you think that 1x15/4x10 is a good combination no company is going to try to talk you out of it. They'll give you what you want and take your money, thank you.
The more you know about how speakers work, the less likely you'll want to mix cabs. As for what endorsers use, don't assume that just because they're great players that they know any more about speakers than you do. Bottom line, they use what they're paid to use.

[JTUK]

I've never seen any value in a 15" cab, so would add a Epi series 1 210 to your list...but if you already have a 410 as well, maybe that doesn't really get you
anywhere..??

[voxpop]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1371386879' post='2113174']
+1. In addition, the usual reason given for adding a fifteen is to get lower extension. The fact of the matter is that the average fifteen loaded cab goes no lower than the average ten loaded cab. As for output capability, the average 1x15 has less output capacity than the average 4x10.
Advertisements mixing 1x15 and 4x10 are ubiquitous, as is the use of that by many endorsers. Why? Ads are intended to sell product, as is supplying endorsers with what the company wants to sell. As to what companies want to sell, that's highly driven by what you want to buy. If you think that 1x15/4x10 is a good combination no company is going to try to talk you out of it. They'll give you what you want and take your money, thank you.
The more you know about how speakers work, the less likely you'll want to mix cabs. As for what endorsers use, don't assume that just because they're great players that they know any more about speakers than you do. Bottom line, they use what they're paid to use.
[/quote]

+1

I could not say it better myself.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1371392503' post='2113252']
I've never seen any value in a 15" cab
[/quote]To put it in a historical perspective, once upon a time fifteen inch drivers tended to be better suited to low frequency applications, while twelves and tens were better suited for higher frequencies. Until roughly 1975 for the most part there was no such thing as guitar versus bass drivers, there were only musical instrument drivers, most of them designed for guitar. Some fifteens were designed for organ and PA, and worked better with bass than guitar tens and twelves. The original 1969 SVT was loaded with guitar tens, that's why they needed sixteen of them to handle the 300w head. Taken in that context, circa 1950-1975 there was some benefit to mixing cabs. That benefit went away with the introduction of true electric bass tens and twelves.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1371392503' post='2113252']
I've never seen any value in a 15" cab, so would add a Epi series 1 210 to your list...but if you already have a 410 as well, maybe that doesn't really get you
anywhere..??
[/quote]

I`d go for this, adding in a 210. I know the theory states that all cabs should be equal, but a 410 & 210 stack sounds very nice. Had a couple, and was very pleased with them.

[Chris Horton]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371384013' post='2113139']
Mixing cabs is a bad plan. The reason it is a bad plan is that the sound of the combination is totally unpredictable, so as soon as you plan on mixing the cab with unspecific different cabs, you can't get any useful suggestions, because nobody can know how they will pair up, the sound isn't a combination of the souds of the two, its another sound again. Do you like the sound of the 10s you have but need louder? Get more the same. If you don't like the sound of them, get rid and get somehting you do like the sound of, then add more the same until loud enough.
[/quote]



Thanks for your explanation it really helped me to understand cabs a little more.
I currently own the following cabs -
- Epifani UL 210 cab
- Epifani UL 410 cab
- Epifani UL 112 cab , all are 8 ohm, series 1.

My faviorate "all round" cab is the 410.
The 210 is a great cab for the size & weight but not quite as full sounding as the 410.
I do run the 410 & 210 together for bigger gigs but when I do , it feels like the 210 cab is struggling compared to the 410 if that makes sence.

I do prefer the tones of the 410 so maybe i should look for another 410 cab ?

[lefrash]

I've always been a 1x15 kinda guy. I'ver always thought no matter what rig I run I should run my wee 1x15 DI cab just get the 'bottom end'. Now tht I've got a right nice 2x10 with nice speakers I've realised that a 2x10 is sufficient! It just hits the perfect frequencies to cut through so that I'm never struggling to hear myself.

Sometimes taking away will add to your sound.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Chris Horton' timestamp='1371410346' post='2113570']
I do run the 410 & 210 together for bigger gigs but when I do , it feels like the 210 cab is struggling compared to the 410 if that makes sence.
[/quote]It does, because both are receiving the same power. For them to work well together the impedance of the 410 would have to be half that of the 210.

[Lozz196]

Yes, if anything sounds like it`s struggling, best to not use it. My 410/210 set-ups worked fine, but I let the ears decide, any chance of bother, don`t do it.

[Chris Horton]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1371414218' post='2113680']
Yes, if anything sounds like it`s struggling, best to not use it. My 410/210 set-ups worked fine, but I let the ears decide, any chance of bother, don`t do it.
[/quote]


I know where you are coming from.
I use the word "struggling" as i dont really know how best to describe it.
I am not running any of my cabs at mega high levels at any time and they never destort........... its just that i can hear the differance between my two cabs. I probabbly use the term "struggle" in the wrong context maybe.

Maybe 2x 410 cab's would balance things up more ?

Edited June 16, 2013 by Chris Horton

[Lozz196]

Well the ideal is always two of the same cab if one isn`t enough. Aside from all the techie stuff, there`s the benefit of using one cab for rehearsals/smaller gigs, then when you add the second, no need to re-eq due to different sounds. You just get double your regular sound.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1371386879' post='2113174']
As for what endorsers use, don't assume that just because they're great players that they know any more about speakers than you do. Bottom line, they use what they're paid to use.
[/quote]

And probably DI for recording and live work anyway ..

[JTUK]

[quote name='Chris Horton' timestamp='1371410346' post='2113570']
Thanks for your explanation it really helped me to understand cabs a little more.
I currently own the following cabs -
- Epifani UL 210 cab
- Epifani UL 410 cab
- Epifani UL 112 cab , all are 8 ohm, series 1.

My faviorate "all round" cab is the 410.
The 210 is a great cab for the size & weight but not quite as full sounding as the 410.
I do run the 410 & 210 together for bigger gigs but when I do , it feels like the 210 cab is struggling compared to the 410 if that makes sence.

I do prefer the tones of the 410 so maybe i should look for another 410 cab ?
[/quote]

Depends how low you can run the impedance of the amp...and if you can go to 2ohms, then
I'd get another Epi 1 210... and then you are truly modular.

Maybe the 112 and 210 are pretty simillar or arther cover the same gigs so you could sell the 112 and have 2x210 and/or 410 in the rig.
The amp would have to do 2 ohms thnough...or for a killer big rig, slave the second cab with a power amp driven by your main amp.

[Chris Horton]

I only use the 112 cab at home when practicing really and then I take the 210 for small gigs etc.
I think my wife would kill me if I bought another amp

[Phil Starr]

Just to redress the balance. It isn't true that mixing speakers is always a bad thing or that the effects are completely unpredictable. If this were so then everyone who ever mixed a 15 with a 4x10 would sound bad and that simply isn't true.

What is true is that if you mix speakers of different types (not just sizes) then the results won't be the best of both speakers, Normally you will lose the character of both types a little but if the resonances in frequency response coincide you might get something new appearing.

It is also true that 15's aren't automatically more bassy than 10's or that 10's have more top, though this happens more than the reverse. It depends upon the model.

I'm not advising anyone to mix speakers and certainly the only way to really know if a combination works is to try it before buying but if a half truth becomes repeated often enough it becomes the received wisdom.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1371543727' post='2115153']
Just to redress the balance. It isn't true that mixing speakers is always a bad thing or that the effects are completely unpredictable.
[/quote]

How do you predict then? Using phase charts?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371563394' post='2115556']
How do you predict then? Using phase charts?
[/quote]That would be part of the method. But you can't even get SPL charts for cabs, let alone phase charts, so even if you knew how to use them to predict the combined response the necessary tools just aren't available.

[Ziphoblat]

And I think by the time you're busting out your scientific calculator and some phase charts you're probably at a point where can just design your own cab to do the trick for you.

[Phil Starr]

Not sure if this is a question or if you are just disagreeing. No matter, you'll have noticed I said "not completely unpredictable" so i only have to make one sensible prediction. If both speakers are 10dB down at 40Hz the combination will be down at 40Hz. In fact if I have an octave averaged frequency response for both speakers then I could give you the octave averaged response of the combination. If I had a third octave response then with a bit less certainty i could give more detail. Of course if I have no data as Bill suggests I can't make any predictions even about a single driver. So yes, you can make sensible suggestions about how a combination might sound. In fact you could put the parameters of two drivers into winISD, model them separately and then sum the results to give a reasonable prediction of the low frequency response. Given enough data you could calculate quite a lot including phase effects should you so desire, though most phase effects apply even if you use identical drivers.

There is no doubt that this wouldn't give a complete picture of the results of mixing drivers and it isn't something I can ever imagine doing but even at a non-technical level you could make a stab at predicting how two speakers might interact.

My main point however is that because designers rarely take on this challenge that the results are doomed beforehand and that because of this anyone who mixes cabs is inherently foolish. Empirical results trump theory, this is the basis of all science.

[Guest bassman7755]

I think that the point is that since there is no longer any need to use different cabs to get "top" and "bottom" then, given the choice, you may as well use multiple identical cabs and get the numerous benefits which arise from this.

[LawrenceH]

It's not ideal to mix speakers, but often when money's an issue it's about availability and working with what you already have. As such I think it's good to put a little perspective in there - the sky won't fall down if you do it! Mixing cabs is only unpredictable to a point, probably less than theory might predict given that most cabs, sealed units aside, will have fairly similar driver characteristics and reflex tunings.
Don't forget that room modes and speaker placement effects will in many cases dwarf those of the cabs. If you stack 10" drivers, consider the effect of moving back and forth in front of them - chaging the incident angle will unavoidably cause changing midrange phase cancellations and reinforcements as the output from the two drivers combines at your ear. A single larger driver doesn't show this, but OTOH will have reduced mid/high dispersion in the perpendicular plane unless crossed over to a smaller unit.

There's one major advantage to 15" drivers that's been lost in all this - assuming similar driver quality then they can perform in a similar range to three 10" drivers, but costing and weighing significantly less. It's all about choosing the best compromise for your situation.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1371649236' post='2116602']
There's one major advantage to 15" drivers that's been lost in all this - assuming similar driver quality then they can perform in a similar range to three 10" drivers, but costing and weighing significantly less. It's all about choosing the best compromise for your situation.
[/quote]

Hence my love affair with BF compacts.