Discovering 2x10 Cabs

[RandomBass]

I've been using my BF Compact for a few years now. For a while I even had two of them, but found I really didn't need that so one of them found a new home.

In one of my phases of curiousity and discovery, I thought I'd see what all the fuss was about with 2x10 cabs as I'd never used one before. Before long I had a pair of those bargain basement Harley Benton 210 cabs from those lovely people at Thomann.

The cabs themselves are pretty well made for the bargain price - and the tweeter is not at all harsh or nasty to listen to. Also, the control plate on the back has a continuosly variable tweeter control, together with a pair of jack and a pair of speakon sockets.

The downside was the 10" drivers - but then what do you expect for less than the cost of 6 months road tax?

So, along came the opportunity to get a set of four Celestion BL10-200S speakers, 16 Ohm each to maintain my 8 ohm per cab rating, for a bargain price.

I'd already had an enlightening PM discussion with our very own Phil Starr: he recommended some Fane Sovereigns in the end, which I may well take up in any future experiments. I eventually got the Celestions and popped them in the HB cabs. An easy swap really.

The difference is night and day.

The dull, poorly defined thudding sound coming from the original drive units has been replaced by clarity, definition to notes, and a real nice punch to the sound. Oh, and easily much louder sensitivty wise. I now have a pair of relatively inexpensive 2x10 cabs, which weigh about 23Kg each, which sould good and loud - either alone or as a pair. I dont have to baby them. I dont have to worry about them. They are purely functional, look good and sound great. What's not to like?

The other side to this, is my discovery of how good a vertically aligned array of four 10" drivers can sound. Plenty of loudness, up higher I can hear them better on stage. Out front they sound just fab.

Anyway, I know I've broken all the rules by replacing drivers without using my Mech Eng Degree to analyse the T/S parameters and box size - please forgive me for that. However, my empirical results suggest I didn't do too badly.

Gotta say a big thanks to Phil Starr for his ideas & suggestions.

Enjoy!

Geoff

[VTypeV4]

A sucessfull transplant! Nice one..

Do you have some pics?

[RandomBass]

Thanks. I can sort some pictures of the finished cabs, I don't have any 'in progress' ones as it were.
Geoff

[aende]

I did a similar thing recently.

I bought 2 old Peavey 210 TX shells, without the drivers. I purchased 4 x Eminence Beta 10" 8 ohm drivers (as I wanted 4 ohm cabs) and wham! Massive sound and huge punch.

To improve weight and because I am a a non hi fidelity lover; I removed the crossovers and the horns. I have had shiny alloy plates made to cover the hole left from the crossover panel removal the the hor removal. Also replaced the grills with nice shiny grills from markie the grillman.

**I hindsight, I wish I had gone with 8 ohm loading as 4 ohm limits my amp use...I have had a 'series' box made up by OBBM to deliver the 2 cabs in series to my GK1001rb ii amp.

[RandomBass]

Funnily enough I'd also considered the series box option if I were going to make them 4 ohms each. Would still be very loud and an easier load on the amp when both cabs in use.

[Lozz196]

The main thing is, do the ears like the sound? If so, even though what you`ve done may break all the rules, that`s the main thing. Done it a couple of times myself and each time the cabs were better after than before.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1371664492' post='2116812']
The main thing is, do the ears like the sound? If so, even though what you`ve done may break all the rules, that`s the main thing. Done it a couple of times myself and each time the cabs were better after than before.
[/quote]
This is unfortunately what the resident experts don't get, all the foibles and mistakes made by the tried and trusted brands have become what we love, if it sounds good it sounds good no matter what the computer programme suggests, I prefer driving my morris minor to the wifes focus zetec, go figure

Edited June 19, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[RandomBass]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1371675736' post='2116943']

This is unfortunately what the resident experts don't get, all the foibles and mistakes made by the tried and trusted brands have become what we love, if it sounds good it sounds good no matter what the computer programme suggests, I prefer driving my morris minor to the wifes focus zetec, go figure
[/quote]
Exactly this. There are some self appointed gurus here that just don't get this. Luckily I got some advice from an informed and wise person to help me on my way.
It's great fun experimenting sometimes.

[chris_b]

Interesting story, but I'd have gone for cabs that utilised good quality speakers in the first place.

[lefrash]

I did the same thing just recently too. Pretty sure Randombass you posted in my thread!

I already owned the HB cab, so for £160 I got a couple of nice neo speakers and I now have a very nice cabinet! if I pick up another HB cab I might just do the same again to get a matching pair!

The last gig I did where my amp was getting used by the other bands another bassist said the rig sounded expensive! I took that as a compliment!

[lefrash]

[quote name='lefrash' timestamp='1371682571' post='2117063']
I did the same thing just recently too. Pretty sure Randombass you posted in my thread!

I already owned the HB cab, so for £160 I got a couple of nice neo speakers and I now have a very nice cabinet! if I pick up another HB s/h on the cheap cab I might just do the same again to get a matching pair!

The last gig I did where my amp was getting used by the other bands another bassist said the rig sounded expensive! I took that as a compliment!
[/quote]

[RandomBass]

[quote name='lefrash' timestamp='1371682571' post='2117063']
I did the same thing just recently too. Pretty sure Randombass you posted in my thread!

I already owned the HB cab, so for £160 I got a couple of nice neo speakers and I now have a very nice cabinet! if I pick up another HB cab I might just do the same again to get a matching pair!

The last gig I did where my amp was getting used by the other bands another bassist said the rig sounded expensive! I took that as a compliment!
[/quote]
Yes I did, and it was your thread that inspired me to have a go :-)

[aende]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1371682123' post='2117056']
Interesting story, but I'd have gone for cabs that utilised good quality speakers in the first place.
[/quote]

That comes at a price. I was tempted to buy a set of GK NEO 210's to compliment my 1001RB ii, I may still do that in the future. But right now, I play pub gigs, weddings, a few 'events'. My gear is a bit beaten up and I would be gutted to spend the best part of a grand on a set of cabs that will get knocked about. I am happy with the current Peavey shells as I don't care too much about them and driver replacement/reconing the drivers I have bought is easy. The shells are pretty tough and well beaten and are a fraction of the cost of buying a similar spec cabinet.


With some high end cabs, I always wonder what happens if you have driver issues; can you recone them or replace them like for like without hassle? At least with my cabs, I know exactly how to fix them, if I ever blow them up!

[lefrash]

The fact also is that alot of people out there already own perfectly nice cabs... its the speakers that perhaps let them down. As discussed in my thread, I know its a bit of pot luck when matching cabs and speakers BUT IMO its a risk worth taking. So the cost of a couple of nice speakers compared to a nice new top end (ish) cab is tiny!

As I've said on my own thread about this subject, I wired my speakers at 16ohm (rather than 4ohm) so I could still run my 8ohm 15" cab. I have stopped using my 15" cab as my 16ohm 2x10 is perfectly loud enough on its own and sounds great!

[aende]

The questions is; Is 212 the new 210?

Noted that more manufacturers are selling a 212 variant and GK have even dropped the NEO 210 from their line in favour of the 212.

[LawrenceH]

This thread is a nice dose of reality. I think Barefaced and the like are great, but people often get too worried about a cab's response below 100 Hz without recognising how little of their 'sound' happens down there compared to the midrange. Not everyone needs massive excursion, especially if you're not trying to play the O2 with a 1x10.
Dropping drivers into cabs - there are a few combinations that won't play well, but I think most of the time (given that most cabs and drivers are really quite similar), what comes out will do the job.
Given the low cost of replacement drivers, it does highlight how bad some of the OEM ones are that come loaded in the cabs!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='aende' timestamp='1371720103' post='2117239']
The questions is; Is 212 the new 210?

Noted that more manufacturers are selling a 212 variant and GK have even dropped the NEO 210 from their line in favour of the 212.
[/quote]
I find a good 2x12 is more comparable to a good 4x10, better than an average one.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1371726166' post='2117359']I think Barefaced and the like are great, but people often get too worried about a cab's response below 100 Hz without recognising how little of their 'sound' happens down there compared to the midrange.[/quote]

Ironically (or is it?) I'm pretty sure I've written a ton about that already!

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1371726166' post='2117359'][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Dropping drivers into cabs - there are a few combinations that won't play well, but I think most of the time (given that most cabs and drivers are really quite similar), what comes out will do the job.[/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Given the low cost of replacement drivers, it does highlight how bad some of the OEM ones are that come loaded in the cabs![/font][/color][/quote]

And how the original cabs and drivers often weren't actually designed to work together anyway!

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371728963' post='2117408']
Ironically (or is it?) I'm pretty sure I've written a ton about that already!
[/quote]

I can't really decide whether it's ironic or not but perhaps because people can model the low-end response of a cab easily these days there's a tendency to focus on that to the exclusion of all else. When I started building PA speakers as a teenager that wasn't a commonly available option, so you just played around with standard alignments, but chose your speakers as much on other criteria.
Big series aside perhaps, I'm sure as many people like the Barefaced cabs for their rather upfront midrange tonal profile (and the weight) as they do for the extended bass capabilities - if you look at how popular e.g. other 2x12s based around lower excursion drivers are, I don't think people reach these limits so often when they're in multi-driver setups.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371728963' post='2117408']
And how the original cabs and drivers often weren't actually designed to work together anyway!
[/quote]

Well maybe, but I'd say more often they are just crap drivers - box tuning is never going to save that!

[JTUK]

[quote name='aende' timestamp='1371716408' post='2117187']
With some high end cabs, I always wonder what happens if you have driver issues; can you recone them or replace them like for like without hassle? At least with my cabs, I know exactly how to fix them, if I ever blow them up!
[/quote]

Not sure how easy it is to recone them or get them reconed...it depends if the cones kits are available. This might write off the chassis quicker than anything else.
I've had PAS drivers go down and you can't get the kits..and I tried pretty hard.
The only option was to source an alternative which takes a lot of research or knowledge and you are lucky that on this site you have a couple fo guys who can likely point you in the right..or less wrong direction and save your cab...but it is still a leap of faith to a degree, IMO.
The recone deal might apply to quite a few OEM chassis' if the volume produced is not large. I was lucky when a GS112 went as it was on warranty, the cab was current..and therefore, so was the chassis... so the only problem was waiting for the shipment to come from the U.S. I sourced one SH on here, anyway..so still have that as spare, so that is a nother ..albeit less likely, option..that someone will have cpare and decent units to sell..

The only thing you can really do is get to know your kit and what stresses it will put up with and then don't push it beyond that...
If a driver goes through fatigue..then that is hard luck but if you try and squeeze more out of it than it will give, then don't be surprised it it breaks.

Any non current cab failure is going to give you hassle getting a replacement and there are quite a few degrees of hassle, IME, from no chance to closest match, but the newer the model the better. IMO.

This is why..in time honoured fashion... I over rate the cab by some way against the power output of the amp.
You can say you are never pushing the amp to its max... but just take that as a bonus and more watts..for want of a better way of bracketing it all...
that are spare...
You may think it is easy to use your ears but chances are when the cab breaks, volumes are likely to be pretty high anyway..and you may not be hearing the best anyway..
And if you use distortion or some other effects...good luck with hearing breakup anyway..!!!

The issue of special, clever and wonderful bespoke cabs for certain cab makers might sound exclusive but then you almost certainly are going to have to go back through them to get your chassis repaired or reconed as not many makers will actually want to tell you what driver your unit is based on.. for various reasons.

Edited June 20, 2013 by JTUK

[chris_b]

Driver issues?

My rule of thumb is to have significantly more watts in the cabs than I've got in the amp. That ensures that no components are stressed to the point of failure.

I haven't had to recone a speaker in over 25 years.


ps Guys; relax, you don't need to explain watts, again!