Why are valve amps so expensive?

[Guest MoJo]

I've always had a hankering for a Marshall VBA400 but even second hand they command a high price. Why? Why are all valve amps so expensive?

[Oopsdabassist]

Materials for the transformer? Also accounts for the weight to be sure!

[Mr. Foxen]

The marshall badge in that case. Otherwise, they aren't expensive. They are a range of prices, same as any other thing, some are expensive, some are cheap, some are well made, some are poorly made, and there is a fairly limited link between those factors.

[paul_5]

[quote name='Oopsdabassist' timestamp='1371678715' post='2116996']
Materials for the transformer? Also accounts for the weight to be sure!
[/quote]

Could be - I'd imagine that there's a whooooole lot of copper windings on the input and output transformers.

[Mr. Foxen]

Plenty of cheap amps have a power transformer.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371680194' post='2117021']
Plenty of cheap amps have a [i][b]cheap[/b][/i] power transformer.
[/quote]

Fixed..?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1371686682' post='2117097']
Fixed..?
[/quote]

Not really. The amp i just bought has super high spec transformer, way ahead of anything you'll find in a valve amp, made by the company that makes top end valve amps, and SS power trannies have developed much further than stuff in most valve amps, £100, 1000w amp.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1371677033' post='2116964']
Why are all valve amps so expensive?
[/quote]Because the musical instrument industry is the only one that still uses them. Price is inversely proportional to production quantity.

[Happy Jack]

Firstly because the world's supply of valve watts is being used up, and there are fewer and fewer of them about. Valve watts are grown organically in sheltered uplands, preferably on north-facing hillsides.

Solid state watts are easily obtained (they use CNC machines to cut them out of large sheets of wattage) but they're not nearly as good as valve watts.

Secondly because putting valve watts inside little glass bottles is more of an art than a science, and the skills just aren't there in the workplace any more.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371690464' post='2117106']
Not really. The amp i just bought has super high spec transformer, way ahead of anything you'll find in a valve amp, made by the company that makes top end valve amps, and SS power trannies have developed much further than stuff in most valve amps, £100, 1000w amp.
[/quote]

...which begs somewhat the point, if you'll allow me. A decent spec power + o/p trannie pair will set one back some $350; smoothing caps around $100 on top. Most SS amps would use a toric trannie, costing far less. Class D do without altogether. A 'high spec' trannie is not necessarilly expensive these days, compared to the old lumps of iron found in valve amps; the 'high spec' lumps of iron were, and still are, very expensive. You're damned right, of course, in affirming that modern trannies for SS have, generally, a much higher spec (and quality, generally...) than the old ones, and are cheaper. Valve amps didn't have this advantage...

[AntLockyer]

A valve amp needs all sorts of high voltages that a solid state amp doesn't.

My transformers I had wound recently are huge to provide the 550V on the HT side, plus windings for the 6.4V heaters and a 5V for the rectifier.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1371722599' post='2117283']
...which begs somewhat the point, if you'll allow me. A decent spec power + o/p trannie pair will set one back some $350; smoothing caps around $100 on top. Most SS amps would use a toric trannie, costing far less. Class D do without altogether. A 'high spec' trannie is not necessarilly expensive these days, compared to the old lumps of iron found in valve amps; the 'high spec' lumps of iron were, and still are, very expensive. You're damned right, of course, in affirming that modern trannies for SS have, generally, a much higher spec (and quality, generally...) than the old ones, and are cheaper. Valve amps didn't have this advantage...
[/quote]

Trannies for valve amps don't cost any more to have made than ones for SS. Its still iron and wire, only difference is economies of scale. Also the costs are way off, I'm selling top tranny sets for less than that, and obviously picked them up cheaper. I just ordered smoothing caps for my pile of 4 Sound citys, and totalled about £70, and vast bulk of that is because have to get specific ones to fit the old clamps, which are way oversized for modern caps of same spec.

5v rectifier?

[tonyquipment]

Interesting topic

I just thought its because they sound better and require more engineering to sound right...

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='tonyquipment' timestamp='1371724479' post='2117327']
require more engineering to sound right...
[/quote]

Definitely not this one. Valve circuits are so established at this point there is nothing new to be done. Plus the circuits are incredibly forgiving to bodgery, often people find them to sound better when completely bodged (see Marshall).

[tallmanmax]

There's a couple of reasons,imo....................the production cost..................and folks 'ill still pay the money.

[KiOgon]

[quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1371677033' post='2116964']
I've always had a hankering for a Marshall VBA400 but even second hand they command a high price. Why? Why are all valve amps so expensive?
[/quote]
Same reason pirates are called pirates - - -

[Mr. Foxen]

Thought of a better one ;Valve amps appear expensive because you aren't looking at the cheap ones.

[RandomBass]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1371712792' post='2117156']
Firstly because the world's supply of valve watts is being used up, and there are fewer and fewer of them about. Valve watts are grown organically in sheltered uplands, preferably on north-facing hillsides.

Solid state watts are easily obtained (they use CNC machines to cut them out of large sheets of wattage) but they're not nearly as good as valve watts.

Secondly because putting valve watts inside little glass bottles is more of an art than a science, and the skills just aren't there in the workplace any more.
[/quote]

This sounds the most plausible explanation. We should be encouraging sustainable and renewable sources, where every valve watt that is harvested is replaced by a newly planted one.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371723848' post='2117311']
Trannies for valve amps don't cost any more to have made than ones for SS. Its still iron and wire,
[/quote]Ture, but valve amps need an output transformer as well, SS do not. Valves themselves are very expensive as their manufacture is fraught with environmental issues, high labor cost, and very limited usage/demand.

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371727460' post='2117377']
Thought of a better one ;Valve amps appear expensive because you aren't looking at the cheap ones.
[/quote]

Which are the cheaper ones then?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1371730659' post='2117439']
Which are the cheaper ones then?
[/quote]

Bunch of ones cheaper than a VBA here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.363434913762369.1073741840.351966881575839&type=3

Be loads more after my caps order turns up.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1371730614' post='2117437']
Ture, but valve amps need an output transformer as well, SS do not. Valves themselves are very expensive as their manufacture is fraught with environmental issues, high labor cost, and very limited usage/demand.
[/quote]

Actually, I've got a valve amp without a power transformer. It isn't the safest thing, but it exists. valves are the expensive bit, and the only significant bit that makes a valve amp that isn't negotiable. Even then, valves for my 40 year old valve amp are much easier to get hands on than transistors for my 40 year old solid state amp. Much less choice gives a more stable cost over a long period.

[tonyquipment]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371725076' post='2117340']


Definitely not this one. Valve circuits are so established at this point there is nothing new to be done. Plus the circuits are incredibly forgiving to bodgery, often people find them to sound better when completely bodged (see Marshall).
[/quote]

Pass.

I'll just stick to my SS TE combo lol

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1371727460' post='2117377']
Thought of a better one ;Valve amps appear expensive because you aren't looking at the cheap ones.
[/quote]

My 300w Ashton rig (including 410 + 115 speakers) was the same price as you'll pick a 2nd hand VBA400 up for. I've had no issues in 2 years with it. Made in the East!

[URL=http://s778.photobucket.com/user/VTypeV4/media/BV300RVW.jpg.html][IMG]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/VTypeV4/BV300RVW.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1371712792' post='2117156']
Firstly because the world's supply of valve watts is being used up, and there are fewer and fewer of them about. Valve watts are grown organically in sheltered uplands, preferably on north-facing hillsides.

Solid state watts are easily obtained (they use CNC machines to cut them out of large sheets of wattage) but they're not nearly as good as valve watts.

Secondly because putting valve watts inside little glass bottles is more of an art than a science, and the skills just aren't there in the workplace any more.
[/quote]

Thats fantastic! Proper made me chuckle!