PA gear as Bass amp/cab (one of the most amazing bass tone's i've heard....)

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1372070425' post='2121140']
Heheh I'm not surprised it was a nice sound - fully active with multiband limiting, 24db/oct crossover as low as 2k to a nice compression driver, and about £1000 rrp if I remember right. You won't find a 2-way bass cab which can match that in a similar footprint!
[/quote] I'm using it again this eve it is a nice bit of kit... also you can find it online for way less than that.
[quote name='fingerz' timestamp='1372079545' post='2121281']
Hi Luke,

This will be to do with the monitor being 'flatter' in it's speaker/cabinet tuning than your bass cab. You are hearing a very flat/uncolored sound due to the nature of the PA set up you are using. Because of this you are getting a really transparent sound (ie, you hear the bass, not the amp so much) which is why all your basses sound so different and like themselves.

Lots of bass amps have their own inherent sound, which can make it seem pointless plugging different basses into them. I imagine the PA also suits the room well, as I've had ok and awful experiences when it comes to getting good low end monitoring through PA's.. But because monitors are designed generally for mid range and clarity your tone can be eye opening.
[/quote] .... which makes me wonder- why do we not use something like this as a bass amp? unless you're going for a distinctive "SVT" tone... I mean this thing is about the same weight as a light combo, sounds great... what's the downsides?
I'm also thinking that with the eq, and playing I could probably get my rig sounding more like this.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372090802' post='2121442']
why do we not use something like this as a bass amp? unless you're going for a distinctive "SVT" tone... I mean this thing is about the same weight as a light combo, sounds great... what's the downsides?
[/quote]

Well it is -3dB at 80Hz, -10dB at 60 Hz, that's the big compromise. Try selling that to bass players as high-end! What it illustrates very nicely is how little genuine low bass you need to get the perception of a full tone on stage. It also demonstrates what you can achieve with active filtering and limiting, as a conventional reflex cab like that would be farting out like crazy at high volume thanks to the unloading below tuning causing the woofer to flap around. The high degree of integration possible in this type of design means they can wring out the absolute maximum in terms of performance from the components.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372090802' post='2121442']
I'm also thinking that with the eq, and playing I could probably get my rig sounding more like this.
[/quote]

To an extent perhaps you could get it flatter but sadly I doubt you can match the clarity in the mid/treble region - having looked inside a Tecamp combo I owned briefly I can say fairly confidently the components just aren't as good as the HK stuff, you will have more inherent distortion.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1372104310' post='2121737']
Well it is -3dB at 80Hz, -10dB at 60 Hz, that's the big compromise. Try selling that to bass players as high-end! What it illustrates very nicely is how little genuine low bass you need to get the perception of a full tone on stage. It also demonstrates what you can achieve with active filtering and limiting, as a conventional reflex cab like that would be farting out like crazy at high volume thanks to the unloading below tuning causing the woofer to flap around. The high degree of integration possible in this type of design means they can wring out the absolute maximum in terms of performance from the components.



To an extent perhaps you could get it flatter but sadly I doubt you can match the clarity in the mid/treble region - having looked inside a Tecamp combo I owned briefly I can say fairly confidently the components just aren't as good as the HK stuff, you will have more inherent distortion.
[/quote] thanks for the reply btw. I forgot to say, but it was so comprehensive that I had no reply!
I think... it is eye opening. I played through it again on monday, and again it sounded great - What would be the closest bass specific thing to it? I'm guessing it's all about clever designed cabs and then using the electronics to get the most - the similarity is the way the TC electronic RH450 manages to put out a lot of sound while using not much wattage - the difference being that amp is very very coloured tonally

[bertbass]

Trace Elliot started life as a P.A. company and their first bass gear was, unsurprisingly, P.A. cabs with P.A. power amps and a bass preamp. Trace Elliot were quite popular at one time you know. Might be going full circle here.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372355932' post='2124817']
What would be the closest bass specific thing to it?
[/quote]

Well PA speakers get a flat response and a clean midrange by using a compression driver with a very large exit horn so that much of the "mids" you hear actually come from the tweeter. They also have the luxury of not needing to produce so much low frequency fundamental because they are mostly used to reproduce voice and instruments where such frequencies are not so crucial to the sound (a full size electric piano theoretically goes down lower than even a 5 string bass but people don't expect to anything like as much actual bass from it). In cases where a lot of bass is required in a PA then you usually need separate subwoofer.

In the bass specific world there are some cabs that produce PA-like flat and clean sound with good bass extension but they are designs using 3 (or more) different drivers and generally at the top of the price range e.g. ACME low-B, Accugroove, Barefaced big series and various other specialist brands.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372355932' post='2124817']
What would be the closest bass specific thing to it? I'm guessing it's all about clever designed cabs and then using the electronics to get the most
[/quote]

I don't know of anything that is close in all aspects whilst being bass-specific, ie uncoloured and integrated. If it's that uncoloured then it wouldn't usually be marketed specifically at bass players, as it'd make an excellent PA which is a bigger market!
Bassman7755 is probably right about the cabs, though it is hard for any passive design to match what can be achieved with active electronics especially at high volume.
I would say though, that there are plenty of PA designs that would go usefully lower than the HK if that's what you want - for example the QSC K12, which I've recommended on here before, would be excellent as a compact bass cab (the older HPR122i isn't too shabby either). Or you could couple something like a K10 or K8 to a sub. But, I wouldn't be worried about the lack of deep bass action if the HK sounds great to you - from the perspective of FoH mixing, I'd consider it something of a plus in a lot of scenarios. If it's about the input side, then a high-quality preamp would be my choice.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1372376983' post='2125168']

I would say though, that there are plenty of PA designs that would go usefully lower than the HK if that's what you want - for example the QSC K12,
[/quote]

The FBT promaxx 14a would probably do a fairly decent job as a clean bass rig ...
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/fbt_promaxx_14a.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/fbt_promaxx_14a.htm[/url]

[LukeFRC]

well. This has been an interesting thread for me Kinda making me rethink how I amp my bass up!

[hamfist]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372439789' post='2125830']
well. This has been an interesting thread for me Kinda making me rethink how I amp my bass up!
[/quote]

Me too.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1372485824' post='2126261']
Me too.
[/quote] I get the urge to either... go get a great PA type amp thing and preamp.
or an ampeg SVT or something full of valves, and go the other way!

[LukeFRC]

Oh... and incase anyone is interested, the tweeter control on my cab seems to affects the crossover point between speaker and tweeter - changing that cleaned up the tone of my cab no end.

[discreet]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1372403690' post='2125232']The FBT promaxx 14a would probably do a fairly decent job as a clean bass rig ... [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/fbt_promaxx_14a.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...promaxx_14a.htm[/url][/quote]

Would not that black plastic housing ring like a bell at battle levels..?

[funkle]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1372376983' post='2125168']


I don't know of anything that is close in all aspects whilst being bass-specific, ie uncoloured and integrated. If it's that uncoloured then it wouldn't usually be marketed specifically at bass players, as it'd make an excellent PA which is a bigger market!
Bassman7755 is probably right about the cabs, though it is hard for any passive design to match what can be achieved with active electronics especially at high volume.
I would say though, that there are plenty of PA designs that would go usefully lower than the HK if that's what you want - for example the QSC K12, which I've recommended on here before, would be excellent as a compact bass cab (the older HPR122i isn't too shabby either). Or you could couple something like a K10 or K8 to a sub. But, I wouldn't be worried about the lack of deep bass action if the HK sounds great to you - from the perspective of FoH mixing, I'd consider it something of a plus in a lot of scenarios. If it's about the input side, then a high-quality preamp would be my choice.
[/quote]

I wonder if the Audiokinesis Thunderchild 112 might be the closest thing to this monitor in the bass world. Uses an OEM 4 ohm version of the Eminence 3012LF though newer versions will use the non OEM 8 ohm version. Compression horn up top and a very nice crossover, apparently. Rave reviews on Talkbass...
http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_thunderchild112.html

The new greenboy Fearless f112 cabinets have a wedge option, 3 way design (with Faital mid and Faital tweet as optional), padding for the mid to allow for EB/DB use, and slightly greater internal volume than the Thunderchild which allows for slightly greater bass extension. Uses the Eminence 3012LF. Not many reviews on Talkbass yet but it looks like a very interesting cab. Very expensive to get a builder to make one for you...example builder at http://jhawkcustoms.com/fearless.htm

Guess what I've been looking at lately?

Edited July 2, 2013 by funkle

[funkle]

Tuning info for the Audiokinesis is F1 = 84 Hz; F3 = 56Hz; F6 = 47 Hz; F10 = 41 Hz; max SPL 122 dB north of 48 Hz. This is according to Duke LeJeune, the designer.

I haven't managed to get any tuning info from the greenboy chaps on their forums. I did earn a fair amount of negative commentary for asking for it, though.

[shizznit]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372022363' post='2120821']
It was an HK Audio D.A.R.T monitor.
http://hkaudio.com/products.php?id=11
[/quote]

I am currently using one of these (12") in the band I am currently working with and it is incredible...probably the best foldback monitor I have ever used. When rest of the band is playing it sounds like any other foldback monitor I have used, but when we sound check and work on my sound the bass guitar representation is astonishingly good through that HK. It's also really pokey for a 12" foldback. Our engineer can really crank the drums through it without break up. Can't recommend these monitors enough.

[funkle]

I forgot to add.

Barefaced are also doing full range reproduction in their Big Baby and Big Twin range. Based on Eminence 3012LF speakers again, I think, and IIRC I think they are using Faital for midrange though I am unsure of the tweeter. According to the specs, only Acmes would be tuned lower, with the Greenboy designs (fEARful and fEARless) being tuned touch higher than Alex's offerings. fEARful are tuned above the Big Series, and the fEARless range above that, as far as I can tell.

Apparently Alex is working on something new...can't wait to see how that might turn out.

Alex's Barefaced website with the various specs and info on acoustics etc is really excellent reading.

Also, the K series that QSC are doing (as mentioned by LawrenceH) are being touted by QSC at [url="http://kformusicians.com/english/instruments/k-for-bass-guitars/."]http://kformusicians...-bass-guitars/.[/url] No vids which actually show how they work for bass though....although I can see Darryl Jones appears to be an endorser. Talkbass searches do seem to show people who have used K10's and K12's with varying degrees of happiness. They do mention using a the sub for total satisfaction...which of course puts the cost up.

Edited July 2, 2013 by funkle

[Owen]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1372485824' post='2126261']
Me too.
[/quote]

Not all PA cabs are equal. I used a Mackie SRM450 for a few months. It ran out of headroom pretty quickly. It was great with the Mackie sub, but that is so heavy. Not to say the more recent generation of stuff is the same as things have moved on and properly set up DSP is superb. I will never enjoy my Double Bass live as much as I did when I was going through a d&b Audiotechnik rig. It was just sublime.

Edited July 2, 2013 by owen

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1372765968' post='2129582']
I haven't managed to get any tuning info from the greenboy chaps on their forums. I did earn a fair amount of negative commentary for asking for it, though.
[/quote]

It's a shame, there was some good stuff over there initially, but I find it all a bit sycophantic and especially now he has launched commercial lines there's not much discussion of design philosophy regarding speaker cabs.They're nice designs but use well-established principles and by PA standards these are low-tech cabs (which is good from a DIY/small commercial builder point of view). FWIW the fEarfuls are tuned around 45Hz IIRC.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1372496366' post='2126363']
Would not that black plastic housing ring like a bell at battle levels..?
[/quote]

Depends how well they've braced it - but yeah I'd be a bit wary of plastic cabs for bass, be surprised if there was actual audible ringing but it might be a bit weak and smeary around the low mids.

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1372792625' post='2130122']
Not all PA cabs are equal. I used a Mackie SRM450 for a few months
[/quote]

A case in point - these are just not in the same class as the QSC, HK etc stuff (though I haven't heard the most recent incarnation) and I suspect the plastic doesn't help.

[funkle]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1372795519' post='2130186']


It's a shame, there was some good stuff over there initially, but I find it all a bit sycophantic and especially now he has launched commercial lines there's not much discussion of design philosophy regarding speaker cabs.They're nice designs but use well-established principles and by PA standards these are low-tech cabs (which is good from a DIY/small commercial builder point of view). FWIW the fEarfuls are tuned around 45Hz IIRC.
[/quote]

Yep, I think managed to find out about the fEARful tunings, but not the fEARless. The fEARless enclosures are smaller volume than the fEARfuls so the tuning must have crept upwards.

The issue I have so far with the fEARless stuff is that the only recommendations I have seen are largely from the builders; any thread on fEARless cabs quickly becomes a case of contributions from the regulars. I have no doubt they are good sounding cabs but I could use seeing a few more positive reviews from someone who isn't a commercial builder.

The Audiokinesis stuff is very interesting though and Duke has been extremely helpful and polite in all his emails with me. His background is pro audio. I have also found Alex helpful in the past.

Lawrence, what's your take on the cream of the bass cab 'full range' crop (Barefaced, Audiokinesis, etc) vs the cream of the PA crop (QSC K series, etc)?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1372764524' post='2129557']
The new greenboy Fearless f112 cabinets have a wedge option, 3 way design (with Faital mid and Faital tweet as optional), padding for the mid to allow for EB/DB use, and slightly greater internal volume than the Thunderchild which allows for slightly greater bass extension. Uses the Eminence 3012LF. Not many reviews on Talkbass yet but it looks like a very interesting cab. Very expensive to get a builder to make one for you...example builder at [url="http://jhawkcustoms.com/fearless.htm"]http://jhawkcustoms.com/fearless.htm[/url]

Guess what I've been looking at lately?
[/quote] are fearless the ones where the plans are available to build your own?

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1372770944' post='2129687']
I am currently using one of these (12") in the band I am currently working with and it is incredible...probably the best foldback monitor I have ever used. When rest of the band is playing it sounds like any other foldback monitor I have used, but when we sound check and work on my sound the bass guitar representation is astonishingly good through that HK. It's also really pokey for a 12" foldback. Our engineer can really crank the drums through it without break up. Can't recommend these monitors enough.
[/quote] yeah they are great!

Was using it again yesterday- listening noticed that there wasn't much low end... but didn't really miss it. What I did miss, was without a preamp I could fiddle with I couldn't roll off my highs very well. Still amaizing sounding bit of gear.

Personally, I was seriously wondering why I had this fancy bass amp and stuff, but changing the tweeter setting seems to move the crossover so it sounds a whole lot better now to my ears as more of the high mids are being done by the tweeter- and the whole thing sounds flatter sounding. (which makes sense as they would have probably designed the cab for a certain setting and the others are options. Ok it's still not flat and colourless or anything but it's pretty good.

[funkle]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372803210' post='2130301']
are fearless the ones where the plans are available to build your own?
[/quote]

No, that's the fEARful cabs. The fEARless you have to pay an authorised builder to get one; they then send a royalty cheque to greenboy I think.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1372798988' post='2130230']
Lawrence, what's your take on the cream of the bass cab 'full range' crop (Barefaced, Audiokinesis, etc) vs the cream of the PA crop (QSC K series, etc)?
[/quote]

Well, I've not used most of the boutique bass stuff (but I do have experience with some of the raw drivers, eg Eminence and to a limited extent Faital). But the PA gear these days is just incredible.
Looking at it in terms of spec and design - the very best bass stuff generally has as good or sometimes better woofers than the small-format PA stuff (not necessarily so when you are talking really top-line systems, but they're for BIG sound). But the PA stuff generally has much nicer compression drivers and horn profiles, which makes a big difference in perceived quality IME. Barefaced are using a nice midrange (I thought it was Beyma?) but that tweeter is pretty long in the tooth. I don't know what Audiokinesis are using, it may be very good but bear in mind the [i]really[/i] high-end comp drivers cost more than the woofers!

Having said that, the smaller PA stuff is, as far as I can tell, usually using decent but not eye-wateringly expensive components in this respect and making them sound great. The secret I think is in part due to the integration with the amps and DSP. I don't know of any bass companies doing this and I don't imagine most have the capacity/inclination to, at least not at that level of sophistication (TC as mentioned are a company that probably could). Bi-amping comes with its own real advantages anyway, and while DSP on top of that can't fix speakers that are total arse, it can make already good ones sound great, enhancing the strengths and making the compromises nearly irrelevant.

The two areas the bass stuff may have an advantage as an all-in-one format are a) if you like the way typical mid-woofer cones colour the sound (I do actually, to a limited extent) or b ) if you want to go really low in a small footprint without using a separate sub, eg the Big series stuff, or I guess Acme? PA stuff is pretty much always designed to cross to a sub if you want to get much below 50Hz or have massive sub-60Hz output.

What you could do is take something like a Barefaced and bi- or tri-amp with a good PA loudspeaker management system that incorporated eg delays, parametric crossovers and nice-sounding limiters. But that probably wouldn't be cost effective and you'd have to tune it to your system yourself. It's a real shame the Eminence D-Fend was released to consumers in such an incredibly sucky way, the OEM boards they demo'ed seemed like a really useful bit of kit for passive instrument cabs that offered some of the advantages of active gear in terms of bass management.

Really though all this stuff is very nice whichever route you take especially if you understand how to set it up! Environmental acoustics are probably more of a limitation in 99% of gigs, and all this gear is designed to mitigate that one way or another (waveguides, directivity matching, EQ, ergonomics).

Regarding the fEarless stuff, I don't think there's much new going on just a different tuning frequency and more compact midrange unit (it'll have a different voicing as a result, of course). Does it offer different woofer options?

Edited July 2, 2013 by LawrenceH

[funkle]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1372805295' post='2130315']
......

Regarding the fEarless stuff, I don't think there's much new going on just a different tuning frequency and more compact midrange unit (it'll have a different voicing as a result, of course). Does it offer different woofer options?
[/quote]

No, the fEARless (or however the right way to spell it) stuff I think is all solely based around the 3012LF.

So, in essence: most decent PA gear is designed to cross over to a sub at frequencies below 50 Hz, but will have better components and design for reproducing midrange and top end. Bass cabs will win on colouration of sound, small footprint and sub 50 Hz reproduction (depending on the manufacturer) but tend to lose out in accuracy of reproduction of thie mids. No active EQ or DSP built in, etc.

Didn't Bergantino do powered cabs for a while with DSP? Their website doesn't have them listed anymore, I suppose the product line wasn't supportable in the market place.

I'm really keen to go and try out a K12 now...though Talkbass users report not enough welly for bass without a sub.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1372833107' post='2130372']
No, the fEARless (or however the right way to spell it) stuff I think is all solely based around the 3012LF.

So, in essence: most decent PA gear is designed to cross over to a sub at frequencies below 50 Hz, but will have better components and design for reproducing midrange and top end. Bass cabs will win on colouration of sound, small footprint and sub 50 Hz reproduction (depending on the manufacturer) but tend to lose out in accuracy of reproduction of thie mids. No active EQ or DSP built in, etc.

Didn't Bergantino do powered cabs for a while with DSP? Their website doesn't have them listed anymore, I suppose the product line wasn't supportable in the market place.

I'm really keen to go and try out a K12 now...though Talkbass users report not enough welly for bass without a sub.
[/quote]

Yeah, pretty much. I wasn't very clear about crossovers, for subs you typically cross around 80-100Hz, but the standalone cabs are designed to work ok without this when necessary, 50-60Hz being a practical lower limit (also there are advantages to crossing well above tuning frequency).
I'm very suprised they say not enough for bass on the Ks, they sound massive to me (I notice there are two version though, the ABS plastic and the birch). But what they won't have is the hump that you get with a lot of cabs so that might be what they're missing? The pre-amp would make a big difference too. To me, these high quality monitorsr sound like what you get with a DI so it all hinges on what you drive them with.

[Owen]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1372833107' post='2130372']
Didn't Bergantino do powered cabs for a while with DSP? Their website doesn't have them listed anymore, I suppose the product line wasn't supportable in the market place.
[/quote]

I have a 3x 10" + Compression driver Berg powered cab (IP310). 1Kw powersoft amp module with full DSP. It is a thing of beauty. However it is proper old school thick wood and ceramic magnets to the max so weighs the same as a small house. All is forgiven when I plug it in though