PA gear as Bass amp/cab (one of the most amazing bass tone's i've heard....)

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1372851834' post='2130643']
I have a 3x 10" + Compression driver Berg powered cab (IP310). 1Kw powersoft amp module with full DSP. It is a thing of beauty. However it is proper old school thick wood and ceramic magnets to the max so weighs the same as a small house. All is forgiven when I plug it in though
[/quote] must sound awesome! I saw you were selling it a year or so back (serching Berg IP in sales section) but you changed your mind?

Edited July 3, 2013 by LukeFRC

[LukeFRC]

It's interesting - berg obviously made a powered cab line - then discontinued them. I guess not enough interest/sales/profit margins?
It just strikes me, that if that HK DART thing had a tiny bit more low end (and not much more) then, at £600 new online I would seriously think of replacing my rig with it or something similar! It's not too heavy really, it can take a monitor mix too, and can be stood up to look more "amp" like.

[Owen]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372871569' post='2131022']
must sound awesome! I saw you were selling it a year or so back (serching Berg IP in sales section) but you changed your mind?
[/quote]

I keep thinking of selling but then realise that I am not going to get anything else close to it without schlepping an awful lot more kit around. I'm sure that I could be happy with one the newer uber 2x12 cabs, but for now I am staying put.

[alexclaber]

I'd be very happy using a big expensive active PA cab for bass. The Big Series cabs are simply a way of getting that sound in a package that you can bothered to haul to gigs on your own and that works well with most heads so you aren't restricted to outboard/rack preamps or carrying a duplicate power stage which you can't use. I've yet to come across any PA cabs of comparable size and weight which can compete at producing uncompressed high SPL tone and bottom but if there are any I'd like to check them out!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1372876963' post='2131102']
I'd be very happy using a big expensive active PA cab for bass. The Big Series cabs are simply a way of getting that sound in a package that you can bothered to haul to gigs on your own and that works well with most heads so you aren't restricted to outboard/rack preamps or carrying a duplicate power stage which you can't use. I've yet to come across any PA cabs of comparable size and weight which can compete at producing uncompressed high SPL tone and bottom but if there are any I'd like to check them out!
[/quote] Hey Alex
Chris at Alpher bass let me try out some of your cabs - they were awesome - some of the nicest cabs I've heard. The midget was ridiculous! (in a good way). If I were going to buy a new cab I know where I would be going!
I guess people are to a certain extent set in their ways and while to me a (good) powered cab with clever power management and then stick a nice preamp infront of it- But I guess that's going to be unorthodox to a large amount of folk who are used to the ampeg/markbass/ashdown head and a passive cab.
(plus I guess a much bigger engineering job to design)

[funkle]

Various bits of K12 commentary from Talkbass:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/qsc-k12-bass-914728/

Interestingly some users talk about the Audiokinesis TC112 vs the K12 in that thread.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/qsc-k12-kw122-970993/

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f203/opinions-qsc-k12-738932/

[alexclaber]

Luke, FYI the Big Series cabs are far less coloured than the Midget you heard and the bottom goes much deeper.

Interesting to hear the K12 vs Baer and Audiokinesis comments - I know where we stand vs them so all is good here!

[LawrenceH]

When I referenced the K series, it was as a midrange small-format PA system with some clever engineering that gets more from its components than it otherwise should - it's not considered 'high end' in the world of pro audio, just an example of a system that I've actually used (for general PA duties, though that includes bass), that if you factor in amp cost is rather good value compared to a lot of dedicated bass gear. There're sound engineers who sniff at it, but you look at the cost of what they use

For Alex, an uncompressed bottom octave is obviously very important - as I've said, for PA that's not usually an issue in a 'full-range' box, and from a FoH perspective I think it's not always the most musically appropriate thing either for backline. Another thing to bear in mind when using PA cabs is you have to understand your signal chain very well to get the most out of it- it won't be plug and play if you're used to particular types of colouration/filtering coming from the amp and speaker.

The issue of weight is interesting. Going off on a tangent...

The usual argument put around on here seems to be that PA companies are cheapskates and can't be bothered to brace properly so use thick panels... but if you're shipping from China then I'd have thought a double weight box cost you a lot more in transport than a thinner one containing a few extra bits of wood when you're cnc cutting everything anyway - especially when the raw material will be cheaper as a result. Plus if you look inside a really good PA box it does contain bracing. There is raw strength as well, of course, PA stuff has to take stress at key points like pole mounts and fly points, these absolutely cannot afford to fail. But also if you look at serious hi-fi, they like ridiculously thick walls plus massive amounts of bracing as well! I would hazard a guess that one reason is, that it's comparatively easy to brace resonant problems away from the bass, but as you go up through the mid-range it gets progressively harder to push the modes higher, no matter what bracing strategy you use, ultimately you are limited by the stiffness of the material in its weakest plane, whether you're using i-beams, struts or full matrices a la the classic B&Ws (pre-stressed bracing is as I understand it a bit of a red herring when you're talking about wood, as it won't stay pre-stressed). What sounds beautifully clean on a bass guitar, may not sound quite so good on a vocal. I'm not sure what the scenario is with ABS plastic, obviously the advantage of moulding is that you maximise the stiffness of the geometry, but the material limit is still there - I wonder if it relies also on the material being inherently highly damped? Energy will get lost in the structure still, there's no free lunch, but it won't be so objectionaly audible compared to something that, as dicreet put it earlier, 'rings like a bell'.

Anyway, back to the original topic...

Edited July 4, 2013 by LawrenceH

[LukeFRC]

I think it's kinda still on the original topic

Oh and alex.... they had a couple of your cabs, not just the midget - I think it might have been a 2x12 rather than a big one though. The midget was the most impressive for me as it was tiny yet sounded great. Both were really rather good.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1372898065' post='2131504']For Alex, an uncompressed bottom octave is obviously very important - as I've said, for PA that's not usually an issue in a 'full-range' box, and from a FoH perspective I think it's not always the most musically appropriate thing either for backline.[/quote]

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant by 'uncompressed high SPL tone and bottom'. I wasn't just talking about the lowest octave of the tone, I was talking about everything, up into the many kHz. And in particular, I don't mean trying to get the F3 of the cab as low as possible because that causes a lot of compromises in other respects and as you say, is not always the most musically appropriate thing for backline.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1372923926' post='2131581']
I think you're misunderstanding what I meant by 'uncompressed high SPL tone and bottom'. I wasn't just talking about the lowest octave of the tone, I was talking about everything, up into the many kHz. And in particular, I don't mean trying to get the F3 of the cab as low as possible because that causes a lot of compromises in other respects and as you say, is not always the most musically appropriate thing for backline.
[/quote]

But the bottom end is the only bit that really needs compressing in the better quality active PA cabs to compete with a deeper tuned, longer excursion woofer. On the other frequencies its just a bonus/safety feature that can eke out a few more decibels when necessary. Opinions vary and it's about where you choose your compromises but for me at PA level a good quality compression driver mated to a decent horn does the high kHz extremely well (though I must say I've no experience with ribbons). Beyond a certain point as well, passive filters just don't make sense any more.

Bit of a rant, for which I apologise in advance. A few years back I feel you were more willing to discuss these compromises openly because you came at it from a DIY perspective - I'm sorry I missed the boat there, it would have been interesting to be involved and there's not so much DIY discussion going on these days - but now you have commercial interests I find your constant plugging of your products at the expense of others a little frustrating, your customers can do that for you, and do it well. These PA cabs under discussion are similar ball-park prices to your cabs or cheaper, but include powerful amps (and processing) as well that would cost several hundred pounds as standalone units. Of course there are going to be limitations which I've tried to make clear (it was me who pointed out the roll-off on the DARTS in the first place, and I also qualified the advantages by limiting comparison to 2-way designs). Nonetheless there are also advantages to these other approaches which make them valid alternatives. I also always make clear that I think you have good designs and I'm happy to believe they sound excellent, to the point where if I wasn't into the DIY I'd probably own one. I've made sure never to go out of my way to point out the design compromises in your own products in these discussions, because I think they are well-chosen such that they'd barely be an issue in the real world of bass amplification. I also think it would be a shame if people started worrying about things that they'd never previously even considered, that all their previous cabs had exhibited to a worse degree in the past! This is what happened with the fEarfuls, no? But it's still ok for them to appreciate the strengths of other design approaches and form factors. Designing ported loudspeakers is not particularly hard these days, in fact it's amazing what you can do just with a computer, some free software and a cheap calibrated measurement mic, certainly compared to when I started dabbling in the 90s. An actual r&d section with proper facilities is not going to lag behind. No-one has a magic product that's light-years ahead of the competition, just slightly different design priorities depending on product intended use and price-point.
/rant

[alexclaber]

Lawrence, if I honestly felt that most of our Big Series customers would be better served by typical active PA speakers then I'd say so and we wouldn't bother making them - the rest of our range has far outsold them to date, anyway. I appreciate that you have a good understanding of the technical side of things but I think there's a fair bit that you don't realise you don't yet know or fully appreciate the importance of. Every loudspeaker is a balance of compromises and it's how you balance those compromises that is critical.

Personally, for musical instrument speakers I'd rather leave any processing up to the player, so they can choose both the tone and the feel they want - playing an instrument is interactive, you play with the amp.

We're not as open about what we do as we used to be - our R&D and resulting ideas and designs are our own intellectual property but would be very hard/expensive to protect. Hopefully in the coming months we'll have stock available for the first time in two years and then bassists can easily find out whether our cabs can move air in an aurally aesthetically pleasing manner or whether all this typing is just metaphorical hot air. The truth will out...

Edited July 4, 2013 by alexclaber

[LukeFRC]

er ok.... don't know what went on there....


So in my head.... for a full Hi Fi type sound the Berg IP series would possibly be the place to look (if you could find one) as a bass specific powered speaker.
After that you have two options...
-PA full range speaker, like the HK DART that I've used. But the compromise is not being designed for low frequencies (as in PA these would be provided by subs)
or
-High end full range Bass Guitar cab, like Acme, Accugroove or Barefaced, which will give you the low end the PA stuff may lack, but won't have the multiband compression or active crossovers that the PA stuff does.

The Berg IP range, theoretically had both! (lucky owen)

[funkle]

Yep, Owen got pretty lucky there!

[Owen]

Did I mention the weight?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1372964590' post='2132278']
Did I mention the weight?
[/quote] you did, but not how much it was, how heavy is it?

[Owen]

iirc it is 86lbs.

[LukeFRC]

ooofff heavy!

[funkle]

As a result of this thread, I'm heading out to try out some QSC K12/K10's at some point, and I just bought northwing's Bergantino IP112ER to try out further knowing I could shift it on if need be. And I'm still rocking my Acmes, though the B2 looks like it could be supplanted by the Berg IP. Now I wind up looking at preamps a lot more too. Blast you all for GAS...or BASS (Bought Another Sound System)...

[funkle]

As a bit of feedback, I went and tried out some QSC K Series powered PA cabinets today.

Took along my Squier CV 60's Jazz and my Zoom MS-60b to use as a preamp (it works for the Bergantino IP112ER, so I thought I'd try it out the same way.)

The K8 (specs at [url="http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/k_series/K_series_K8.php"]http://www.qscaudio....K_series_K8.php[/url]) low end only sounded so-so without the deep switch engaged. The mids and top end sounded very pleasant and 'honest'/faithful in their reproduction. With the deep switch engaged, it had *just* enough bass (less than I like to hear as an Acme fan), but this lowered the overall volume possible. Did not deal with slapping well, not that I do much, but it gives an idea of how a cabinet deals with transients. Overall, my Acme B1 covers this area for me better, though of course it doesn't have huge max volume either and also doesn't put up well with big spikes from slapping. I note -10db point for the K8 given as 61 Hz.

The K10 (specs at [url="http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/k_series/K_series_K10.php"]http://www.qscaudio...._series_K10.php[/url]) seemed like a winner for low-moderate volume jazz stuff. Even without the 'deep' switch engaged, it had a pleasant low end and a very honest mid and upper end. With the 'deep' switch on it really beefed up. Again, though, the max volume out of the cabinet was not as much as I had thought it could have been. The specs say -10db at 56Hz. Not dissimilar to the Audiokinesis Thunderchild 112, which has a similar -10db point ([url="http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_thunderchild112.html"]http://www.audiokine...erchild112.html[/url]).

I didn't have time to test the K12 though I will probably go back and do so at some point. I suspect the K12 will be where it's at in terms of bass guitar reproduction/low end.

On the whole I really liked the mids and top end of the K8/K10. Very honest, I thought, and in some ways more flattering than my Acme cabinets. I assume it's the quality of the compression driver they use.

Perhaps the Zoom pedal wasn't pushing enough voltage to drive the K series, though it seems to be fine for various power amps according to Talkbass users and IMO also drives the Bergantino IP112ER just fine. Perhaps I'll try putting the bass through a mixer first, or take along my Aguilar TH DI box for the next run.

For now, for me, the Bergantino IP remains top of the heap in terms of volume and serious low end for a small size of cabinet. My Acme B2 has been supplanted by the Berg and it is just about on its way out the door to a happy buyer.

I do have a Barefaced on order which I think will be very exciting. I'll post back here with results after a trial/gigs.

Pete

Edited September 18, 2013 by funkle

[JTUK]

Church round here has Meyer installed...

To answer an earlier point, the reason I give the soundman post is so he has an idea of the sound
I am after. If he can improve on that, then bonus BONUS
And my amp sound isn't £500 anyway...not even S/H

is his rig £25k..???

Edited September 18, 2013 by JTUK

[Owen]

Keep this info coming! Have you looked at the Yamaha DSR series? They seem to get a lot of love and they have a 15" (850w) + 2" (450w) model.

[Owen]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1379527564' post='2213778']
Church round here has Meyer installed...
[/quote]

I played through a Meyer rig once

[JTUK]

You'd do better with the KW series, IMO..
The KW12 is very good and worth the difference.

[funkle]

I was in Guitar Guitar in Glasgow. They had Alto, Mackie, Samson, Yamaha, and QSC PA gear. I think the QSC was kind of the top of the line of what try had. I asked about RCF (the HD10a has some very interesting specs) but they didnae have it.

JTUK, didn't see the wooden QSC KW12 though I'd like to give it a go at some point, alongside the K12. You're using the KW12 in your band PA rig aren't you?

Mmm, Meyer gear. How much money do you have? And roadies...

I have a sense though that bass guitar amplification has evolved naturally to fill the niche that most people require. I guess most players like bass cabs with significant mid colouration and that push goodly amounts energy at 80-160 Hz, with a small amount of energy in the 40-80Hz area. An SVT stack rolls off pretty heavily below 80hz, I think...and is perennially popular.