PA gear as Bass amp/cab (one of the most amazing bass tone's i've heard....)

[JTUK]

Sorry, cross posting without quoting what I am referring to.

Meyer is excellent but then the prices....!!!


QSC is good standard function band P.A where the singer wants a better sound.
IMO, decent vox P.A's need to start at this point.
K series is ok...for vox and a sub... KW far more capable, but the internal mapping, as I call it, is always
the clever part here.

Martin is another league..but then you'll pay for it.
Martin monitors are pretty often still the benchmark,

Recently demo'd the Yam DSR series for a keyboard rig and it was touted as a competitor to QSC K12, RCF... but the standout was QSC KW.
If you are anywhere near Andertons, they have a decent room to A/B most of this stuff.
The question we asked ourselves was 'was the price save on the Yamaha worth it?'.... and the unfairness of A/B'ing this stuff is that you can make that call..which we did and it wasn't, IMO. IF we hadn't that luxury, we might have thought the Yamaha good enough.


Just the observations of the day, mind...as I recall them, even though it was less than 6 months

[gjones]

I had the same pleasant surprise a couple of weeks ago with my Jazz through a venue monitor. I put it down to the fact that my signal was going through an expensive compressor and, because it was a wedge, was pointing right at me. Try doing the same with your amp (i.e. put it on a table or something so that it's ear height) and the sound will probably be just as good. The problem with bass amps is that, with most of them, the sound is aimed at your knees not your ears.

[JTUK]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1379528693' post='2213809']
I was in Guitar Guitar in Glasgow. They had Alto, Mackie, Samson, Yamaha, and QSC PA gear. I think the QSC was kind of the top of the line of what try had. I asked about RCF (the HD10a has some very interesting specs) but they didnae have it.

JTUK, didn't see the wooden QSC KW12 though I'd like to give it a go at some point, alongside the K12. You're using the KW12 in your band PA rig aren't you?


[/quote]

Yes, we use KW12's and replaced Martin Audio ICT500's with it. I think Martin was better, but QSC is more manageable as we got to do away with C-Audio amps.
We currently run the KW12's with RCF ART 905 subs. The tops are proven as far as we are concerned, need more time with the subs.

Bone of contention..I am lugging a sub...and I don't yet go through it FFS..!!!! having said that.. I am loving my bass monitor rig anyway, so anywhere we use this P.A ... small halls, the bass backline can reach anyway

[JTUK]

As a general point, I embarked on my bass monitor some time ago when I used Turbosound stage monitors..and SWR started the Bass monitor
concept with their SM amps and Goliath cabs...way back when.

The thing about only hearing very clean is that it isn't very forgiving...so you need to be up to that...or rather want to hear that coming back at you.

[funkle]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1379529775' post='2213835']
Bone of contention..I am lugging a sub...and I don't yet go through it FFS..!!!! having said that.. I am loving my bass monitor rig anyway, so anywhere we use this P.A ... small halls, the bass backline can reach anyway
[/quote]



[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1379530046' post='2213840']
As a general point, I embarked on my bass monitor some time ago when I used Turbosound stage monitors..and SWR started the Bass monitor
concept with their SM amps and Goliath cabs...way back when.

The thing about only hearing very clean is that it isn't very forgiving...so you need to be up to that...or rather want to hear that coming back at you.
[/quote]

Big +1 to this. I got my first Acme cab (B2) 5-6 years ago and was astounded by the low end but also by how much I needed to pay attention to technique. There's stuff I see bassists doing on Youtube where I sometimes wonder how they would sound through 'honest' amplification.

I'm not all boutique...I do enjoy typical bass amplification. I did a jazz jam session last week playing through another bassist's Minimark - http://www.markbass.it/product_detail.php?id=86 - thought it sounded pretty good and decent enough volume. But the geek in me wondered about off-axis dspersion, etc...

[JTUK]

I'm pretty picky with the sound I want to use... but I'll go with quite a few served up if it pushes me to hear and play different things.
I also ALWAY want to hear everything I do tho... but there is something to be said for being somewhat 'buried' as you can get away with more.

If I can hear everything I do ..then I like to think that translates out front...but that really depends, as we all know and there is only so much control you can have over that.

I always remember my first 'solo'd track... I was mortified, but the sound mixed down ok... it was the rest of my playing that was the problem..
but these days I can live with a quality reproduction and don't always wnat the drums to hurry up and join the track

Why do we think the grindy Ampeg sound was so popular... ???

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1379617995' post='2214989'] I'm pretty picky with the sound I want to use... but I'll go with quite a few served up if it pushes me to hear and play different things. I also ALWAY want to hear everything I do tho... but there is something to be said for being somewhat 'buried' as you can get away with more. If I can hear everything I do ..then I like to think that translates out front...but that really depends, as we all know and there is only so much control you can have over that. I always remember my first 'solo'd track... I was mortified, but the sound mixed down ok... it was the rest of my playing that was the problem.. but these days I can live with a quality reproduction and don't always wnat the drums to hurry up and join the track Why do we think the grindy Ampeg sound was so popular... ??? [/quote]

The trouble is you need to hear both. I always like to hear where i sit in the mix and if I'm not going through the PA eq for the band not the bass. I play with flats a lot not because I like them but because they suit one of the bands well. At the same time you can't use much in the way of intonation etc if you can only vaguely hear what you are playing.

I love your point about the first time you heard yourself solo'd, I really didn't realise how awful I was, then in the mixdown it sounds like I know what I'm doing. The reassurance is that even people like James Jamerson sound ordinary when solo'd, well the tone does.

This is an isolated bassline from the Clash if the link works [url="http://www.how-to-play-bass.com/support-files/fought-the-law-bass.mp3"]http://www.how-to-play-bass.com/support-files/fought-the-law-bass.mp3[/url]

And this is Jamerson [url="http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2012/08/01/james-jamerson-bernadette-isolated-bass/"]http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2012/08/01/james-jamerson-bernadette-isolated-bass/[/url]

[LukeFRC]

Was practicing at the same place this week- new drummer who's a lot louder so the HK D.A.R.T. got cranked.... it sounded even better!

Mind you thinking about it i dunno if I'm going to change owt with my setup.
my cab is only 18kg and sounds fine. Berg IP's don't come up enough (and weigh more) and while the Barefaced Big Baby looks amazing... it doesn't have the DSP that would make it worth the upgrade (tho weighs less.) In terms of Hi-fi stuff... i'm still a bit weary of selling my rig to go with a PA monitor/speaker for some reason.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1372947395' post='2132001']
If I honestly felt that most of our Big Series customers would be better served by typical active PA speakers then I'd say so and we wouldn't bother making them - [b]the rest of our range has far outsold them to date[/b], anyway.
[/quote]

why do you think this is Alex?

[Highfox]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1379755577' post='2216425']
This is an isolated bassline from the Clash if the link works [media]http://www.how-to-play-bass.com/support-files/fought-the-law-bass.mp3[/media]

[/quote]

Cool, thanks, I always wondered what he played for the middle 8 in I fought the law

[Owen]

I do not want to de-rail this thread, but I am looking for some active PA speakers for work (FE college doing live gigs with bands) and for church (different rigs) and would welcome opinions from those of you who seem to be using them in the wild. Thinking about QSC/Yamaha 12" + Sub offerings. Wondering about the Yamaha 15" but thinking perhaps a 15" + 1" comp driver might not be a happy combination but fancy the bombproofability that the 15" would offer for learning how to use PA systems. I am fully aware that teaching them how to not abuse stuff is part of my job, but you would be amazed at what the dance teacher does to the rig (and her ears) when my back is turned.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1379772293' post='2216632']why do you think this is Alex?[/quote]

I think mostly because they're more demanding in terms of amplification than our other models (combination of lower sensitivity for their size and how they interact with amps as they approach/exceed full power) and partly because they're heavier/larger in comparison for their output. Awesome tone and output if driven right though. The new Third Generation BB2 and BT2 solve all those 'problems'!

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1379949295' post='2218591']
I do not want to de-rail this thread, but I am looking for some active PA speakers for work (FE college doing live gigs with bands) and for church (different rigs) and would welcome opinions from those of you who seem to be using them in the wild. Thinking about QSC/Yamaha 12" + Sub offerings. Wondering about the Yamaha 15" but thinking perhaps a 15" + 1" comp driver might not be a happy combination but fancy the bombproofability that the 15" would offer for learning how to use PA systems. I am fully aware that teaching them how to not abuse stuff is part of my job, but you would be amazed at what the dance teacher does to the rig (and her ears) when my back is turned.
[/quote]

Hi Owen I have both the Yamaha S112 and 115's. On the plus side they have proven to be bomb proof over a long time. The sound is very forward especially the 12's which have a strong midrange peak which brings vocals right to the front of the mix but can make them sound harsh and cause some feedback problems. The 115's are better mannered. I've always liked the sound of the horn drivers Yamaha use but am less keen on the Eminence bass drivers. The latest Yamahas have new drive units, I believe they are manufacturing them in-house but someone else may know more.

I host a thread on PA/live sound on another forum [url="http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?p=31527243#post31527243"]http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?p=31527243#post31527243[/url]. Probably better to start a new thread here or to continue there rather than to interleave this into someone else's thread.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1379530046' post='2213840']
The thing about only hearing very clean is that it isn't very forgiving...so you need to be up to that...or rather want to hear that coming back at you.
[/quote]

I find it an odd thing - why wouldn't you want to hear it - esp in practice as you can train yourself to good technique. I have a friend (and they're a music teacher) and they can "play" guitar. The amount of awful noise from bad technique is horrid - and you wonder how they can't hear that.

[LukeFRC]

So thinking.. options...

1) Berg IP or equiv. - powered cabs designed for bass with compression and DSP etc. can easily find other folk who've used them for bass guitar
2) PA speaker, fullrange with DSP etc - often designed to be used with subs so might not be suitable for bass guitar
3) Fullrange bass cab, 2-3 way speaker... not as high tech obviously... barefaced being one example - what others are out there?

Theres a BFM omni 12 tallboy for sale on here for not too much, what are they like? Bill stuff has a good reputation hasn't it?

[Musicman20]

Try the TKS 12/6....and you can add a horn...(there is one on demo in Newcastle if you pass!)

Very 'PA' like full range quality. Ridiculous amount of clear bottom end, very 'flat' and quite dry sounding, excellent if you want that kind of tone. The mids are super clear with the 6. I would personally want the horn...just to add the extra treble bite.

For a small cabinet...it really is shockingly good. It also looks stunning and weighs hardly anything.

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1379527564' post='2213778']
Church round here has Meyer installed...

To answer an earlier point, the reason I give the soundman post is so he has an idea of the sound
I am after. If he can improve on that, then bonus BONUS
And my amp sound isn't £500 anyway...not even S/H

is his rig £25k..???
[/quote]

That makes a whole lot of sense, but it depends on how you use your amp.
What do you do if you need to cut the bass to prevent boom in a certain room(lets say for arguments sake you have already tried moving the rig etc) ?

I have my DI pre EQ, how I want to sound has already been EQ'd on the bass and with the rest of the crap I have, so then the amps EQ is free to help if I need more or less of something.

[Musicman20]

Surely any decent soundman can use post EQ as its the sound you desire, and he can tweak to the room?

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1382453817' post='2252329']
Surely any decent soundman can use post EQ as its the sound you desire, and he can tweak to the room?
[/quote]

What I'm getting at is if you change the EQ which you've set to get your sound, if you change the EQ tI be heard better on stage without turning up (more mids or top) then that EQ is no longer what you want to sound like and so a post EQ is now no longer your desired sound.
Am I right?

So regardless how good the soundman is, he won't know how you want to sound unless you either tell them(pr and send a pre EQ DI signal or send him a post one and then have a strange shouting discussion across the venue where you tell them what you've done to the EQ and he counters that on his desk etc.

The few soundmen I've actually asked about this have said it's better having it pre (i was relying on a 1khz boost from my amp) and they put the boost I wanted in the PA cause I talked to them.

So anyway I'm not trying to be arguementative, just wondering what JTUK would do if they had to change the EQ for one reason or another and was still going post EQ.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1382444264' post='2252156']
Try the TKS 12/6....and you can add a horn...(there is one on demo in Newcastle if you pass!)

Very 'PA' like full range quality. Ridiculous amount of clear bottom end, very 'flat' and quite dry sounding, excellent if you want that kind of tone. The mids are super clear with the 6. I would personally want the horn...just to add the extra treble bite.

For a small cabinet...it really is shockingly good. It also looks stunning and weighs hardly anything.
[/quote] I was looking at their website yesterday... bit of a lack of info for me to make a plunge... -10dB at 33Hz - I would be interested how quickly that rolled off... but converting the price into GBP and it's pretty much the same price as a barefaced BB2 which is lighter.
[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1382453817' post='2252329']
Surely any decent soundman can use post EQ as its the sound you desire, and he can tweak to the room?
[/quote] Hmm quoting two posts in a row, I'm not getting at ya honest!
Having done a tiny bit of PA stuff... I would prefer my own DI straight from the bass (or effects if used) and then split the DI to the desk and link to the amp. I'm pretty sure that almost any half good bass plugged into a DI I could make sound good, once it has gone through an amp... it's less certain. I know the bass sound will probably work well and then I can add compression and Eq from the desk... ideally then you mic the cab and blend the two....

[Owen]

Pre/post DI? Horses for courses. DI before my preamp input? With an active bass, not bothered. With a passive bass? No, a passive bass likes the front end/loading a proper preamp gives. Try both and listen to the difference. Some DIs are OK but some are REAL tone suckers (Behringer [standard kit in a lot of not TOP pro setups] is not pleasant).

[Musicman20]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1382470486' post='2252625']
I was looking at their website yesterday... bit of a lack of info for me to make a plunge... -10dB at 33Hz - I would be interested how quickly that rolled off... but converting the price into GBP and it's pretty much the same price as a barefaced BB2 which is lighter.

Having done a tiny bit of PA stuff...
[/quote]

I wasn't sure how I would like the 12/6, but its fantastic. Not only that, but the build quality and finish is on par with Bergantino and Aguilar.

I'd like to see the new BF range in the flesh but purely on a aesthetical design point of view I prefer the TKS cabs. That is without seeing the BF Gen 3 in the flesh. I just don't like the coating idea very much...unless its like the Berg AE range, Silly, but you pay the price so may as well have something that looks good at the same time, (to whoever is buying it).

I've only briefly looked into PA desks....they bore me to tears to be honest. I love playing with bass/guitar amps, but PA's seem rather boring to me. I'd always leave it to the soundman, who probably hasn't got clue and has no real qualifications in most situations.

Pre/post? A P bass plugged straight into the DI box to the PA sounds pretty limp...I've tried it many times. A Stingray...not so much, the active EQ gives more control.

Still, a decent pre-amp like a Tech 21 or Aguilar pedal and you are again colouring the tone. But colour can be great. Nothing wrong with having a defined and coloured sound. Most the players I like have a coloured tone.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1382472146' post='2252665']
I wasn't sure how I would like the 12/6, but its fantastic. Not only that, but the build quality and finish is on par with Bergantino and Aguilar.

I'd like to see the new BF range in the flesh but purely on a aesthetical design point of view I prefer the TKS cabs. That is without seeing the BF Gen 3 in the flesh. I just don't like the coating idea very much...unless its like the Berg AE range, Silly, but you pay the price so may as well have something that looks good at the same time, (to whoever is buying it).

I've only briefly looked into PA desks....they bore me to tears to be honest. I love playing with bass/guitar amps, but PA's seem rather boring to me. I'd always leave it to the soundman, who probably hasn't got clue and has no real qualifications in most situations.

Pre/post? A P bass plugged straight into the DI box to the PA sounds pretty limp...I've tried it many times. A Stingray...not so much, the active EQ gives more control.

Still, a decent pre-amp like a Tech 21 or Aguilar pedal and you are again colouring the tone. But colour can be great. Nothing wrong with having a defined and coloured sound. Most the players I like have a coloured tone.
[/quote] We may just have differing oppinions here - a P bass into DI and PA to my ears sounds awesome - but and the big but- is that you'll be able to tell the good instruments from the bad striaght into DI....
also if your sound man is an idiot then yeah you're best off doing it yourself! I also know from seeing you about on these forums for years that you tend to have great gear so I presume it sounds good too .... so maybe differing opinions!
I don't mind the finish on barefaced to be honest. I know Alex knows what he's doing sound wise which is what would swing it for me.

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='132471612' post='655']
Pre/post DI? Hours for courses. DI before my preamp input? With an active bass, not bothered. With a passive bass? No, a passive bass likes the front end/loading a proper preamp gives. Try both and listen to the difference. Some DIs are OK but some are REAL tone suckers (Behringer [standard kit in a lot of not TOP pro setups] is not pleasant).
[/quote]

That gain knob on your amp, I'm pretty sure there is one on a soundman's desk.

It's a different story in a recording studio granted. You so won't necessarily have to change any EQ to counter boom or help cut through in a mix.


At the gig it's different. If I went with my predestined EQ (1khz boosted and a small bit of bottom boosted) then at sound check (for argument sakes) if I couldnt hear it I would have to turn up the volume and give everyone a massive brain disorder, just to retain my sound that's going to desk.

Lets say it's too boomy on stage. I now gave to change my small boost to a heavy cut in lows, so now instead of a bass with full lows the soundman has to have a horrid nasally thin sound.


To me it doesn't make sense, so i am wondering what would you do if you were using Post EQ and had to change it.

[LukeFRC]

Roland D-bass series as a DSP powered combo option… any experience?