Songwriting. How do you do it?

[xgsjx]

I thought I'd find out how you guys go about writing as a band.

In my previous bands, it's been me & one other person that writes the actual songs (or sometimes just one of us). The chord/riff structure, the melody & the lyrics etc.
E.G. One of us comes up with an idea & shares it with the others. Me & the singer would jot the basics down & then we would email one another the ideas & write things. Then we'd take pop charts for the rest of the band & they would come up with their own parts, changing things to suit. Simples.

My new band, I've introduced a couple of songs that I've written everything for except the lyrics, shared it via a group facebook pm & they've said that they liked it, but seem reluctant to play it at rehearsal & just wanna jam covers.

Now I know it's easy to write rock songs where it's a handful of chords & a strum along, but we're (supposed to be) a funk/acid jazz/groove band & the guitarists (there's 2 of em) seem to be struggling to get outta the "strum the basic chords" mentality.
OK, the stuff is out of their comfort zone, but they wanted to do something out of their comfort zone. So I want to get them involved in the writing, but don't know fully how to go about getting things started when it comes to group writing.

I tried sending a bassline via soundcloud & gave em the chords, hoping that they'd download it & write. They said that they liked the bassline, but can only play as part of a group.

Ideas?

[BigRedX]

Unfortunately IME there are an awful lot of musicians who will never amount to any more than regurgitators of other peoples ideas.

I would ask yourself why you are looking for major song writing input from the other members of the band? If it's because you need their compositional skills in order to complete the songs then I think you've probably got the wrong people playing with you. If it's simply because you feel that everyone should have a creative input, then stop worrying. Some musicians just need to be told what to play. They will put their own mark on what they play (eventually) but will probably have to have at least 75% of the parts already worked out for them. If you can do this yourself then go ahead and do it. With a bit of luck once they start to feel more comfortable with the genre and the band dynamic they will become less reliant on being told what to play and start coming up with usable ideas of their own.

I learnt to play, because I wanted to compose, and at the time having some instrumental skill seemed to be the easiest way to go about this. At the moment because of the rather fluid nature of the guitar and drum line-up of the Terrortones, I've been working out most of the guitar parts in full and Mr Venom has been doing much the same with the rhythm parts. We'll probably continue to write like this until the line has stabilised and the other musicians have got into the "vibe" of how we compose.

Conversely I've been in a band where almost none of my song ideas seemed to work when the other musicians played them. I had no problem coming up with good bass lines to fit what the others wrote, but few of my ideas worked with that band line-up. Luckily the band included two other prolific songwriters so it wasn't too much of a problem.

[Cat Burrito]

I tend to write my own bass lines 99% of the time but will happily take an idea off of someone else if they have a good suggestion. Equally I'm not afraid to suggest a part for the guitar or similar. Ultimately though this is arrangements and not writing. The writer is the songwriter who sits in his / her room and comes up with chords / melody / lyrics etc. I write a bit but I've been blessed to work with 3 or 4 superb writers over the last 20+ years. Luckily we've never made it quite big enough to all fall out over the money or who did what I bet a lot of bass players & other musicians think they are writing but ultimately whilst we contribute to a creative process we could find ourselves cut out of any royalties if the band starts to take off. Some bands like U2, Kiss in the early days etc just split equally but many don't. Some of you might want to have that conversation with your own bands.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1372251043' post='2123358']
Unfortunately IME there are an awful lot of musicians who will never amount to any more than regurgitators of other peoples ideas.
[/quote]

People like Elvis Presley for example? I don't think it is unfortunate. I'd rather hear good covers done well as opposed to an originals band that are dreadful. We all bring different skills to the table and some of the best musicians I know focus on playing sessions, teaching, playing at home or working in covers bands. And I say that as someone who has dedicated my career to original bands almost entirely for 25yrs.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='BurritoBass' timestamp='1372252051' post='2123372']
People like Elvis Presley for example? I don't think it is unfortunate. I'd rather hear good covers done well as opposed to an originals band that are dreadful. We all bring different skills to the table and some of the best musicians I know focus on playing sessions, teaching, playing at home or working in covers bands. And I say that as someone who has dedicated my career to original bands almost entirely for 25yrs.
[/quote]

But the OP was bemoaning the fact that some of his band don't seem to be very creative, and I was pointing out that being creative as a musician is not the rule.

Regarding covers and originals I have the opposite viewpoint, and I also play in a covers band. IME most of the audience for the average covers band would be better served with a well stocked video jukebox.

[Lozz196]

I tend to not write songs anymore, just not got the buzz for it, plus only ever really write songs on guitar and my guitar style isn`t right for the band I`m in. But, I do find that I have a knack for adding parts to songs that our main song-writer has written, be they bridges/changes of chords/time-structures/endings to give the song "more". I suppose more of an arranger than anything. So really, I need something to already be there in order to "write" something else in.

I write all my basslines, as tend to wait until the guitars and vocals are ready, and then write something that doesn`t get in their way. I don`t like over-busy, and with a band with drums, 2 basses, 2 sometimes 3 gtrs, and 2 vox, well space nneds to be sought.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Lozz196

[Gust0o]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1372251043' post='2123358']
Unfortunately IME there are an awful lot of musicians who will never amount to any more than regurgitators of other peoples ideas.
[/quote]

This is probably me, sadly, however inadvertently.

I'm drawn to an old story about Mick Jagger, and his giving KD Lang a writing credit. Seemingly he heard [i]Constant Craving[/i] in a nightclub, got it stuck in his head, and went off and wrote [i]Anybody Seen My Baby?[/i] without realising the glaring similiarity.

I like big riffs. I'm just conscious that every now and then, enthused with some new idea which is pretty rocking, I'll put something on in the car and remark to myself: [i]oh sh*t[/i].

[xgsjx]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1372251043' post='2123358']
Unfortunately IME there are an awful lot of musicians who will never amount to any more than regurgitators of other peoples ideas.

I would ask yourself why you are looking for major song writing input from the other members of the band? If it's because you need their compositional skills in order to complete the songs then I think you've probably got the wrong people playing with you. If it's simply because you feel that everyone should have a creative input, then stop worrying. Some musicians just need to be told what to play. They will put their own mark on what they play (eventually) but will probably have to have at least 75% of the parts already worked out for them. If you can do this yourself then go ahead and do it. With a bit of luck once they start to feel more comfortable with the genre and the band dynamic they will become less reliant on being told what to play and start coming up with usable ideas of their own.
[/quote]

I think you've either slightly misread or I've not written correctly.

I'm very happy writing everything. When I started the band, I expected that I would be the main songwriter & any input from the others would be a bonus. But it seems that the guitarists want to write their own parts (which I'm happy with them doing, so long as it's not drivel/a noodle).
I suggested that we get the basics of a song started, recorded a 2 min bassline for them to pop in their DAW (along with a simple drum pattern) for them to get ideas from & chop up/change about to suit. The only 2 who's downloaded & played about with it are the drummer & keys/dj. Guitarists said "yes, it's good. But I can only play as a group" & haven't done anything else.

My actual post though isn't so much about that, but how folk write as a group rather than have a dedicated writing team (or individual). If any bands actually write that way & do we use the rehearsal time to structure the song & work on just the one song for 2 hours?

If they turn out to not be creative, then I'll happily write the entire songs at home & say "here's your part" to each musician (not in an offensive way, they're all decent, friendly chaps that I get on well with).

[lurksalot]

I haven't written anything for our band , but if I did , I would probably try to sketch out and rough record the entire arrangement.
That said I reckon they would all then do a job of it and get it to a workable number.
With this months composition entry , Ray our warbler played a bit loose with some of the lyrics , but it went well , one take , had fun doing it and as a result we will do something again.
If it was a serious vision of a song , lyric and arrangement I am not sure how 'precious' it might become , I could imagine there might be times when a writer/performer knows exactly how the finished article should sound and be a tad dismissive of creative input.
still , we will see what transpires , Rhythm guitar suggested using this months song as a soundcheck number after Ray played it to him

[BigRedX]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1372271541' post='2123723']
I think you've either slightly misread or I've not written correctly.

I'm very happy writing everything. When I started the band, I expected that I would be the main songwriter & any input from the others would be a bonus. But it seems that the guitarists want to write their own parts (which I'm happy with them doing, so long as it's not drivel/a noodle).
I suggested that we get the basics of a song started, recorded a 2 min bassline for them to pop in their DAW (along with a simple drum pattern) for them to get ideas from & chop up/change about to suit. The only 2 who's downloaded & played about with it are the drummer & keys/dj. Guitarists said "yes, it's good. But I can only play as a group" & haven't done anything else.

My actual post though isn't so much about that, but how folk write as a group rather than have a dedicated writing team (or individual). If any bands actually write that way & do we use the rehearsal time to structure the song & work on just the one song for 2 hours?

If they turn out to not be creative, then I'll happily write the entire songs at home & say "here's your part" to each musician (not in an offensive way, they're all decent, friendly chaps that I get on well with).
[/quote]

Sorry, I probably misunderstood what you were after. If your happy with the guitarists working out their parts at band practice then that's fine, otherwise write some parts for them and get them to learn that. I've found from previous bands that if you do this either the other musicians are happy to play what they've been told or quickly get themselves together and work out what they want to play in advance.

As for my own band's writing method...

I don't write lyrics so I've always written in partnership with someone who does. In the Terrortones, originally our guitarist came up with the musical ideas to which Mr Venom would fit some words, the drummer and myself would write our own parts to fit and everyone would chip in ideas for the overall arrangement. As the band progressed and I got more comfortable with the way the music was going, I started contributing more original song ideas. After our first guitarist left I pretty much took over the musical side of the song writing.

Currently I'll come up with one or two musical ideas each week. I'll present these to Mr Venom who looks through his collection of written lyrics to find something that will fit and then the two of us will work on an arrangement. This will be presented to the rest of the band as a rough guitar part and bassline with lyrics and a proposed structure. Mr Venom who is also an accomplished drummer will have an idea of what the basic rhythm part should be. We'll probably spend half that week's rehearsal time fine tuning this with the other musicians and then the following week we'll just practice playing it tightly as a band. Any song that isn't ready to gig after two full band rehearsals isn't happening and will get put aside in favour of something that is.

[rOB]

IME

I write the bass part and the vocal parts. In this band that forms the basis of most if not all our songs. I'll bring these bits to reheasal/band jam and the guitarist and drummer will put their parts together.

Then we'll restructure if necessary.

[SimonEdward]

OK.. just to add my tuppence to this thread.
I'm a hobbyist. I am not in a Band or signed to a label etc. I like to collaborate with other musicians on the internet, or do the whole lot myself..
I enjoy the whole production process (writing /recording/ mixing/ mastering); and promoting the music; (Instrumental/Ambient/Chill-out or combinations of all three) on various websites, including my own blog. Its a far cry from 10-15 years ago - making or having CDs pressed; and doing mail-shots etc

Songwriting.. not easy is it? Obviously, everyone is different.. and there is loads of advice out there already, but This is how I go about it:

1. Something, someone or somewhere provides a topic/theme to write about.. best to have passion for the subject.
2. I do some word association and use thesaurus/ dictionary to help with rhyming ... does a song always have to rhyme?
3. An idea for a melody might come at the same time - to fit with the words - or the other way around.
4. I try and use a key appropriate to the theme (i.e. E flat minor probably would not work well with a 130 BPM up tempo dance track?)
5. Using a drone in the chosen key can sometimes help find other chords? There are samples and loops out there to inspire..
6. I use percussion loops to help with tempo, but I like real drums - and a couple of drummers on the internet help me out. I also use drum loops.
7. I write a Bass line! Its much easier when recording to have distinctive (?) patterns for the song form: - intro/verse/chorus/verse repeat etc
8. Songwriting can also be fun! The pursuit of accidents. or that feeling when you improvise something, which fits after only a couple of takes!
9. LISTEN!! quick render to MP3 - Its rarely right first time.. be your own worst critic - oh, and dont mix at 02:00 when your ears are tired?

Thats about it.. Come on BCers! Lets here your compositions!! Edited June 26, 2013 by SimonEdward

[Geek99]

You know how someone says something and it reminds you of a story ? That's how it works for me - a song spills out like a story (well 70% of it anyway )

I then forget to write it down or tell anyone and it disappears into the ether

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1372271541' post='2123723']
My actual post though isn't so much about that, but how folk write as a group rather than have a dedicated writing team (or individual). If any bands actually write that way & do we use the rehearsal time to structure the song & work on just the one song for 2 hours?
[/quote]

We should only work on just the one song, sometimes for weeks at a time, but our fiddle player keeps wanting to go through stuff we've been doing for ages that should be fine now, while our main songwriter/vocalist/guitarist keeps wanting to leap ahead, and also they both fret over the tiniest little details for too long, too early in the process.
I am old, so i keep my gob shut and let them get on with it

They'll learn.

[DogHammer]

All our song writing comes from Jamming in the practice room.

Usually we set the recorder going and take it in turns to 'Lead' a jam and see what comes out. Usually just a verse, or chorus comes out and sometimes both together. Then after that we discuss creating a Bridge or Middle 8ish kind of thing a bit of structure and we are on the way.

As for your guitarist saying that he cant throw down a lick to a bassline... I dont really get that!

[BigRedX]

I have to admit that in the days when I was just writing my own bass lines to songs that others had come up with, it wasn't until I could hear all the other parts (particularly the vocals) that I would get the final version of the bass part together.

[Skol303]

[quote name='SimonEdward' timestamp='1372284450' post='2123950']Come on BCers! Lets here your compositions!![/quote]

Hi Simon. Not sure whether you're aware of this, but there's a bunch of music made by BCers [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/210888-june-composition-competition-voting-time/"]right here[/url]

Be great to have you join in one month!

Paul

[SimonEdward]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1372352217' post='2124753']
Hi Simon. Not sure whether you're aware of this, but there's a bunch of music made by BCers [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/210888-june-composition-competition-voting-time/"]right here[/url]

Be great to have you join in one month!

Paul
[/quote]

Hello Paul - good to hear from you.. Thanks for the steer about the BC composition comp. About 7-months ago, I started trying to write some tunes/songs again.. for my own pleasure/amusement.. after a break of 10-years away (raising a family, moving house a few times, working etc), and getting back into the swing.. It's been good fun, and giving some direction/outlet for my playing. It comes highly recommended!

I know it's all about "the taking part", and the standard of writing/musicianship/Bass playing is very high indeed.. so we'll see.. but like quite a lot of people, some of us might worry that our playing and production skills are not really up to the job! Actually, I have been tempted to put an entry in a couple of times, but I'd like the composition to go with the monthly 'theme' (if you get me?), and not just chuck anything in for the hell of it.. but you never know!?!? (I have voted for some entries from time-to-time as well)..
Cheers! PS This amusing clip from 'The Fast Show' is a reminder of those dark days before the internet - glad we've made a little progress! Enjoy BCers! [b]*****contains very strong language*****[/b]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr1qJQpAF_s[/media]

Edited June 28, 2013 by SimonEdward