warm Squier Classic Vibe 60's & bright Vintage Modified 70's....it's the pots?

[iconic]

Yawn, yet another CV v VMJ thread.......but bare with it.....

..... I've got one of each and the CV is a far warmer tone, with the VMJ being quite bright 'in ya face'....I found took a look under the hood on both and also found some Fender schematic/service diagrams which covers pretty much everything Fender (Squier) have built.....from Affinity's upwards.

.....the CV runs 250K pots with .047uf cap, the VM runs 500K pots with the same cap, I'm guessing this could go some way to explain the difference?

Edited June 29, 2013 by iconic

[tony_m]

That's always been my understanding. More here...

[url="http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Electronics/Pots/w101-controlpots.html"]http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Electronics/Pots/w101-controlpots.html[/url]

[dave_bass5]

I'd say it was more a combination of things.
They have different pups dont they? Id say that would explain the difference in tone more. I'd expect the Duncan Designed™ JB101 Single-Coil Jazz Bass to be a bit brighter and more in ya face.
They are also made of different wood, although im not sure how that works on tone.

[dannybuoy]

I think the 500K pots in the VM series do make a difference. I sold a VMP to buy a USA P and was quite disappointed in the sound at first due to the more subdued highs - until I strung it with flats and kept it like that ever since!

Edited June 28, 2013 by dannybuoy

[iconic]

[quote name='tony_m' timestamp='1372408138' post='2125294']
That's always been my understanding. More here...

[url="http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Electronics/Pots/w101-controlpots.html"]http://www.stewmac.c...ontrolpots.html[/url]
[/quote]

good link, thanks

Edited June 29, 2013 by iconic

[iconic]

that site could explain why when I changed the cap' on a P bass this week that runs 500k pots from .047uf to .1uf (big step change in percentage terms) it didn't really change the sound too much, next week the p will be getting the 250k pots as well.


edit....reading that again it seems the cap' make more of an impact?...confused I am?

Edited June 29, 2013 by iconic

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1372493977' post='2126334']
that site could explain why when I changed the cap' on a P bass this week that runs 500k pots from .047uf to .1uf (big step change in percentage terms) it didn't really change the sound too much, next week the p will be getting the 250k pots as well.


edit....reading that again it seems the cap' make more of an impact?...confused I am?
[/quote] depends where you have the tone control, the cap will affect where and how the tone will roll off - but with it open it will have no effect.
The resistance of the pots however have a massive effect on the loading of the pickups and therefore the tone. Pickup loading is more important that people seem to realise, even active basses- how the signal is treated before the pickup makes a difference - I like the cleverness of the stingray preamp where the pickup feeds at full volume into the preamp and the volume is after the preamp.

[iconic]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372498544' post='2126405']
depends where you have the tone control, the cap will affect where and how the tone will roll off - but with it open it will have no effect.
The resistance of the pots however have a massive effect on the loading of the pickups and therefore the tone. Pickup loading is more important that people seem to realise, even active basses- how the signal is treated before the pickup makes a difference - I like the cleverness of the stingray preamp where the pickup feeds at full volume into the preamp and the volume is after the preamp.
[/quote]

hmm, very interesting post (thanks)....I had a Yamaha BB614, an active PJ to all intents, cracking bass when everything was flat-out....but relly that PA EQ sucked, if there was no treble, mids and bass wound up it was very quiet, my Stingray 4 3EQ H never suffered this...I wonder if Yamaha had the reverse of the Stingray pickup feed system?

[taddy]

i have the squier 70s classic vibe p bass with  fender vintage pups arriving in the post shortly, will these fit straight in by connecting the two wires or will i have to change the tone cap too? bit confused on this issue with caps, regards all.

[hooky_lowdown]

27 minutes ago, taddy said:

i have the squier 70s classic vibe p bass with  fender vintage pups arriving in the post shortly, will these fit straight in by connecting the two wires or will i have to change the tone cap too? bit confused on this issue with caps, regards all.

Fender pickups with be a direct fit, the wires will be black and white, make a note where each goes. You don't need to change the cap.

If you are not comfortable soldering the new pickup to the pots, there is an alternative method, where you can cut both wires between the old pickups and the pots. Then carefully expose the copper wire, do the same with the new pickups (don't cut this wire though!), twist the two black copper wires together, do the same with the white ones, then wrap electrical tape around the wires to protect the connection, and this will work to connect the new pickup to the pots, and everything should work fine.

What are you trying to achieve by changing the stock pickups with these new Fender vintage ones?

 

[therealting]

I’m surprised pickup positions weren’t mentioned at all in the context of the original post. 

[Lfalex v1.1]

On 29/06/2013 at 10:35, LukeFRC said:

iconic said:

...

depends where you have the tone control, the cap will affect where and how the tone will roll off - but with it open it will have no effect.

The resistance of the pots however have a massive effect on the loading of the pickups and therefore the tone. Pickup loading is more important that people seem to realise, even active basses- how the signal is treated before the pickup makes a difference - I like the cleverness of the stingray preamp where the pickup feeds at full volume into the preamp and the volume is after the preamp.

From my understanding, that's the way it should be done. It'd improve signal/noise ratio in the (internal) EQ/preamp no end. As long as you don't clip the said preamp with too hot a pickup output it'll be just fine.

The volume control (master) also ought to be the last in the signal chain before the power stage in a head or combo.

I can't see why anyone would do otherwise.blockquote widget

Edited April 28, 2020 by Lfalex v1.1

[LukeFRC]

2 hours ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

I can't see why anyone would do otherwise

Most do though. 
the thing to look for is buffered input stage and then a blend after it. That means the input stage will be doing the loading on the pups - some of  John East’s preamps have this 

[taddy]

9 hours ago, hooky_lowdown said:

Fender pickups with be a direct fit, the wires will be black and white, make a note where each goes. You don't need to change the cap.

If you are not comfortable soldering the new pickup to the pots, there is an alternative method, where you can cut both wires between the old pickups and the pots. Then carefully expose the copper wire, do the same with the new pickups (don't cut this wire though!), twist the two black copper wires together, do the same with the white ones, then wrap electrical tape around the wires to protect the connection, and this will work to connect the new pickup to the pots, and everything should work fine.

What are you trying to achieve by changing the stock pickups with these new Fender vintage ones?

 

Sorry late getting back been in shed all day levelling frets with a beam on a guitar neck😶 the stock pickups sound a bit muffled tbh i have a squier jazz vm and a epi thunderbird that knocks spots off the p bass? regarding tone and the thump i would expect from the p bass? so i thought pick ups, i really like the p bass its a nicer guitar, easy to play, with a good action, i just cant get the sound out of it i want, its prob got 250k pots in it whilst the jazz will have 500ks in and i thought the fender pups might need to have the cap changed on the pots? i am a coded welder by trade, so should be able to solder the connections and thanks for taking the time to answer my post it really is appreciated👍 cheers hooky

[hooky_lowdown]

56 minutes ago, taddy said:

Sorry late getting back been in shed all day levelling frets with a beam on a guitar neck😶 the stock pickups sound a bit muffled tbh i have a squier jazz vm and a epi thunderbird that knocks spots off the p bass? regarding tone and the thump i would expect from the p bass? so i thought pick ups, i really like the p bass its a nicer guitar, easy to play, with a good action, i just cant get the sound out of it i want, its prob got 250k pots in it whilst the jazz will have 500ks in and i thought the fender pups might need to have the cap changed on the pots? i am a coded welder by trade, so should be able to solder the connections and thanks for taking the time to answer my post it really is appreciated👍 cheers hooky

I'm a little confused, it sounds like you want a clean/bright tone (strong high end) but thumpy (strong low end) at the same time. The fender vintage pickups will do the latter but not really the former.

Most people make the mistake of changing pickups when they want to change their tone or sound. Changing the type of strings you use will have a bigger impact, then different pickup. Steel roundwounds with the fender vintage pickup is you best choice for the sound you want as far as I understand.

I think the best pickup for you would be the Kent Armstrong vintage hot. Changing the pots from 250k to 500k will give a cleaner/brighter tone, but you will lose some of the thump. Likewise, if you change the cap from the stock 0.047 to a guitar 0.022 you'll again get a cleaner/brighter tone, but you will lose a lot of the thump.

[taddy]

On 28/04/2020 at 23:18, hooky_lowdown said:

I'm a little confused, it sounds like you want a clean/bright tone (strong high end) but thumpy (strong low end) at the same time. The fender vintage pickups will do the latter but not really the former.

Most people make the mistake of changing pickups when they want to change their tone or sound. Changing the type of strings you use will have a bigger impact, then different pickup. Steel roundwounds with the fender vintage pickup is you best choice for the sound you want as far as I understand.

I think the best pickup for you would be the Kent Armstrong vintage hot. Changing the pots from 250k to 500k will give a cleaner/brighter tone, but you will lose some of the thump. Likewise, if you change the cap from the stock 0.047 to a guitar 0.022 you'll again get a cleaner/brighter tone, but you will lose a lot of the thump.

yep i'm confused too i do want the low end thump, its just that someone mentioned changing the cap to an orange drop improves the range of the tone? i think listening to your explanation, i will just load the vintage pups when they come (still waiting) and see what happens

i don't really understand the electronic side of it? give me fret levelling adjustment and set up and i'm fine,

thanks again hooky👍stay safe.

p.s

just copped for a damaged ibanez tmb30 shortscale in black, brand new but a scratch on the back (retailer couldnt sell it? so for 70 quid i reckon its a bargain waiting for that delivery too  always fancied a short scale as i used to play guitar  

the write up and reviews on them are pretty decent, so excited to get my hands on one.

Edited April 30, 2020 by taddy
correct spelling

[hooky_lowdown]

33 minutes ago, taddy said:

yep i'm confused too i do want the low end thump, its just that someone mentioned changing the cap to an orange drop improves the range of the tone? i think listening to your explanation, i will just load the vintage pups when they come (still waiting) and see what happens

Different brands of capacitor's will have little effect on your tone. A different value (say going from 0.047 to 0.022 will have a bigger impact). If you want a smoother tonal range you need a paper-in-oil (PIO) cap.

You bagged yourself a bargain with the tmb30, these are well regarded. Short scales are great, I have a short scale arriving today. With short scales you need a heavier guage of string than you'd have on a full scale as the tension of the strings are less. So if you like the E on full scale at say 100, on a short scale you'll need a 105 to get a similar tension.

Fellow Liverpool fan here, so happy to help. 😀

[taddy]

6 hours ago, hooky_lowdown said:

Different brands of capacitor's will have little effect on your tone. A different value (say going from 0.047 to 0.022 will have a bigger impact). If you want a smoother tonal range you need a paper-in-oil (PIO) cap.

You bagged yourself a bargain with the tmb30, these are well regarded. Short scales are great, I have a short scale arriving today. With short scales you need a heavier guage of string than you'd have on a full scale as the tension of the strings are less. So if you like the E on full scale at say 100, on a short scale you'll need a 105 to get a similar tension.

Fellow Liverpool fan here, so happy to help. 😀

Well that's cool they come with 105s on so all good  yes it was a bargain, first time I've been that lucky in a while! the only reason i chose it is because i was looking at a jaguar short scale, but it was really expensive and this ibanez popped up so i checked a few reviews and snatched it on the strength of those👍 i will post a pic when it comes either tomorrow or mon? it has been dispatched as have the fender vintage pups so gonna be busy setting up  thanks for the info and taking time out to help, much appreciated. 

[Pirellithecat]

On 28/04/2020 at 11:30, taddy said:

i have the squier 70s classic vibe p bass with  fender vintage pups arriving in the post shortly, will these fit straight in by connecting the two wires or will i have to change the tone cap too? bit confused on this issue with caps, regards all.

But.... did the new Fender Pups make a difference ?  It's a "get a new bass, get new Pups, .....  get a new bass, get new Pups, ......get a new bass, get new Pups, moment  - and with so much time on my hands .........

Anyway, be interested to know once they're installed.    

Sorry for thread hi-jack