Whole rethink on rig - bass cabs to PA

[hamfist]

Well, due to various discussions on here, plus a load of thinking and previous experience, I am trying out a whole new approach to my live bass rig.
With my pub band I have no FOH support for my bass so have to provide a fair volume from my rig (GK MB500 plus 2 x TC RS210 cabs). Anyway, I always end up with my bass rig behind me, and frequently I am standing only about 3-4 feet in front of it. So I end up with huge volume right behind me, and poor tone as, despite running a vertically stacked 4x10 rig, the tweeters are well below my ear level so I get little benfit of the high mids and highs. I have been underwhelmed by every variety of bass amp/cab variation in this style that I have tried. A key factor being how directional in close proximity bass cabs are. When they are firing at your midriff from a few feet away you are simply not going to hear anything like what the crowd will hear.

So ........ anyway, I tried out using simply a passive 12" woofered PA wedge (run from my MB500) at church on sunday (where I do go through FOH) and it was a really positive experience. Angled up to my head, I could hear the nuances of my tone and playing better and could also move around and still hear pretty much the same from quite a wide area. My volume contribution to the stage was also less than with my "traditional" bass rig.

So trying to translate this in to what to do with my pub band, I have decided to provide my own "FOH", comprising one RS210 laid on it's side with the 12" passive monitor on top of it. This will provide my main volume for the audience and will sit in front of me, next to the FOH speakers that the guitarist and vocals go through. THese two cabs seem to work really nicely together in that configuration in home tests, although I know that the tech-heads amongst you will be very aware of the potential pitfalls of mixing cabs etc. I will run them (4 ohms combined) from my MB500's main speaker outs.

Now ... how to actually hear myself on stage, with a socially-acceptable volume and with nice tone ........ I have sold one of the RS210's and with the cash have ordered an Electrovoice ZLX-12P, 12" powered monitor, which I shall run from my MB500's DI out , or line out, which I shall use to side fill, providing my main foldback and also bass fill for my bandmates. I may even need to low cut this monitor, as I suspect I will still be able to hear vast amounts of lows from my "bass FOH" which, even though still in front of me, will spread a goodly amount of lows filling out the sound throughout the room.
The EV cab also has two inputs, so I will be able to run a monitor feed from the desk into one, with vocals, and my bass into another, which is another nice bonus as my current vocal monitoring (I also sing backing vox) is verging on pathetic.

I don't have a pub gig until early Aug so will have to wait a while to give it it's full test, but I will certainly be experimenting at rehearsals in the meantime using just a wedge.

I spent quite a while thinking about getting in-ears but in the end rejected the idea, as my budget would not stretch to decent level equipment. Also, I have not enjoyed the isolated feeling I have experienced whilst using them in the past.

Your thoughts and comments would be appreciated. But please be gentle !

[rOB]

Sounds good to me. Any set up that points a speaker at your ears is a big plus in my book.

[Muzz]

I've got an angled stand for my cab, which points it upwards at my head. Can hear everything. Did you try one of those? £14, IIRC

Am going the IEM route (mostly for pitching my ropey vocals) shortly, though, which will get round the whole shebang.

[hamfist]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1372837019' post='2130409']
I've got an angled stand for my cab, which points it upwards at my head. Can hear everything. Did you try one of those? £14, IIRC

Am going the IEM route (mostly for pitching my ropey vocals) shortly, though, which will get round the whole shebang.
[/quote]

I've tried all sorts of arrangements to angle cabs at my ears. Two problems .....

First, the more they are angled at me, the less they are angled at the audience.

Second .... bass cabs all still seem to be incredibly directional, so I still can't move much from the "optimum" position. Can't beat that big wide horn dispertion of a PA cab.

[Phil Starr]

I don't see why this shouldn't work extremely well. For a while i used a little harke Kickback in the same way as you propose using your monitor and it was all positive for me, I could hear much more detail with the speaker pointing at me and the rest of the band could hear themselves better as the overall stage volume decreased, We had much less bleed through on the vocal mic's. the downside was for the drummer who likes lots of bass flapping his trousers and disturbing his stomach contents.

Mixing speakers is often overstated as a problem in these forums. It has implications but they aren't extreme, In this case with the speakers well separated and pointing in different directions it won't cause a problem for you.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1372838003' post='2130419']
Second .... bass cabs all still seem to be incredibly directional, so I still can't move much from the "optimum" position. Can't beat that big wide horn dispertion of a PA cab.
[/quote]
I've never found a cab to be that directional, esp the better ones. If anything i've had problems with PA guys not liking the way that even on whisper quiet my bass cab will fill the hall in a way their speakers won't

[hamfist]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372873903' post='2131068']
I've never found a cab to be that directional, esp the better ones. If anything i've had problems with PA guys not liking the way that even on whisper quiet my bass cab will fill the hall in a way their speakers won't


[/quote]

A bass cab will fill a hall with bass frequencies, as the lower you go, the more omni-directional they are. The highish mids and up are very directional though in every bass cab I have ever tried, and that includes some very expensive ones.
I havn't met a sound guy yet who is aware that bass guitars actually put out any frequencies over about 400Hz, so your comment doesn't surprise me !

[Lozz196]

The best cabs I`ve used for dispersion are Schroeders. No matter where you stand, the sound is the same (well I didn`t try standing behind it, but you get the idea).

[hamfist]

Lozz, you're not the first person I've heard say that. However, my experience has been a little different. I have owned and gigged a Shroeder 410 and I found them to be only a tiny bit less directional than other bass cabs. It was one of the semi-angle baffle ones BTW. My suspicion is that there is so much tradition and culture in the bass world, giving all this resistance to change, that the whole scene is virtually blind to the fact that bass guitar cabs simply are poor at spreading anything approaching full range bass guitar tone around a stage or venue. OK, they were fine in the days when a bass guitar in music really was only there to fill in the low end sonically, but these days, modern genres require so much more from a bass tone that IMO "traditional" designed bass cabs with their poor mid/highs dispersion are simply not fit for purpose. There ... I've said it !

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1372940260' post='2131858']
OK, they were fine in the days when a bass guitar in music really was only there to fill in the low end sonically, but these days, modern genres require so much more from a bass tone that IMO "traditional" designed bass cabs with their poor mid/highs dispersion are simply not fit for purpose. There ... I've said it !
[/quote]

This is the crux of it really, does your particular sound require even dispersion above 1k or so?
Plus, do the players who have their cabs below their waists realise how much they can be blasting a beam of treble death across a section of the audience to get it sounding right 30 degrees off axis, where their ears are?
I am really interested in knowing more about which frequencies different players prioritise in the way they hear their sound, I am convinced it's really variable.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1372940260' post='2131858']
Lozz, you're not the first person I've heard say that. However, my experience has been a little different. I have owned and gigged a Shroeder 410 and I found them to be only a tiny bit less directional than other bass cabs.
[/quote]

A symmetric 4 speaker system is the worst possible configuration from a directionality point of view as you get phase cancellation as soon as you go off axis in any direction.

[aende]

My cabs, Peavey TX 210 with the horns and crossovers removed and fitted with Eminence Beta drivers, have effectively become monitors. We use a high power, high quality PA system (Crown and Mackie based) with 4 x subs. In small venues I don't bother with the DI as my Gallien 1001rb ii is loud enough through the 2 x 210 cabs. If I need a bit more I have an extra 115 and extra 210 cab that I can also run for more projection - I have a few different length speaker cables to place the cabs where I need them. If the place is big or a wedding; I Use 2 x 210's as stage monitors and DI the amp to the PA and let the subs take care of the bass. I can also use my spare cabs as side fill or monitoring for the drummer.

We use Mackie monitors through the system - so, I can always hear myself, but I also backing sing......to the annoyance of the audience!

**Our lead guitar player is very rich indeed! He owns the lot!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1372940260' post='2131858']
IMO "traditional" designed bass cabs with their poor mid/highs dispersion are simply not fit for purpose. There ... I've said it !
[/quote]

Theres some truth is this for sure. The ideal speaker setup from a dispersion viewpoint is either a single driver or a vertical stack of identical drivers comming up to ear level. Its probably one reason where stacking single speakers or 2x10/12 designs end on end is becoming popular.

Edited July 4, 2013 by bassman7755

[stevie]

It's worse than that: you get phase cancellation even when you're on-axis (from a specific frequency up). The design principle of the multiple-driver bass cab is that if one driver is not loud enough, add more until you're happy. It may have served may people well, but it's a bit basic, to put it mildly.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1372942975' post='2131911']
This is the crux of it really, does your particular sound require even dispersion above 1k or so?
Plus, do the players who have their cabs below their waists realise how much they can be blasting a beam of treble death across a section of the audience to get it sounding right 30 degrees off axis, where their ears are?
I am really interested in knowing more about which frequencies different players prioritise in the way they hear their sound, I am convinced it's really variable.
[/quote] the frequencies they prioritise that they want for a tone, or the frequencies the want to hear their sound? I've found that sometimes they are different things, what I tend to need to hear in order to play (in loud/busy mix) is a fair bit higher than I would nessesrally want/need for a bass tone (from FOH point of view)

[hamfist]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1372960569' post='2132211']
what I tend to need to hear in order to play (in loud/busy mix) is a fair bit higher than I would nessesrally want/need for a bass tone (from FOH point of view)
[/quote]
I am definitely the same. In fact for my new personal monitor, I shall certainly be starting out with applying the 80Hz High pass filter option in the amp. IME with my current band there's always plenty of lows washing around the stage, and will still continue to be from my "bass FOH" rig. So a hefty low cut on my personal bass monitor will allow it to focus on the frequencies which actually allow me to hear the attack and pitch of my notes, rather than just feel them.

[Lozz196]

The Schroeders I had were a straight facing 410, and a 21012, with the 12 being angled.
[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1372940260' post='2131858']
Lozz, you're not the first person I've heard say that. However, my experience has been a little different. I have owned and gigged a Shroeder 410 and I found them to be only a tiny bit less directional than other bass cabs. It was one of the semi-angle baffle ones BTW. My suspicion is that there is so much tradition and culture in the bass world, giving all this resistance to change, that the whole scene is virtually blind to the fact that bass guitar cabs simply are poor at spreading anything approaching full range bass guitar tone around a stage or venue. OK, they were fine in the days when a bass guitar in music really was only there to fill in the low end sonically, but these days, modern genres require so much more from a bass tone that IMO "traditional" designed bass cabs with their poor mid/highs dispersion are simply not fit for purpose. There ... I've said it !
[/quote]

The Schroeders I had were a straight facing 410, and a 21012 with the 12 being angled. I was just amazed at how well the sound was projected, and importantly, that moving to the side didn`t immediately remove the highs/clarity. I agree, the majority of cabs have no problems with the lows, quite the opposite in fact, but with the highs/clarity, well that seems to be a different ball-game.

[Monckyman]

This is an interesting thread and one that dovetails into the "sound man f***ed my sound up" threads that pop up every time someone realises their Bergantino can't be heard by the audience.
Most of us use half decent P.As nowadays and simply don't need the grunt we used to.
In fact, from a sonic perspective quieter rigs are preferable for a better mix out front.
So,what about us and what we hear?
I reckon wedge shaped boxes are the way to go,if you have that half decent FOH.
I have been working on this theory for the last year by binning the big Ampeg boxes and going with an Ashdown mini 4x8
,BUT its sat on a keyboard stand so I actually hear a decent direct sound.
I tried an angled guitar amp stand and that worked pretty well also.
I don't need the sub frequencies, as some of you have started to suss,I believe it actually prevents proper monitoring of your articulation and high frequency detail.
I usually have quite a mid range accent in the Ashdown( with an Ampeg PF500) but with the drummers 15"active wedge and the 4 15"s in the FOH there's plenty of low end about anyway.
I'm trying to make the transition to a wedge In front of me, rather than a box behind me,which my head knows will be sonically superior all round, but my heart tells me isn't rock and roll.
I'm not saying the big rigs aren't sweet, in their place ,but I suspect most of us gig in smaller and more self contained circumstances and that's what we are talking about here.
So, in essence, small pokey boxes aimed at your ears should provide all you need on a gig rather than that 4x10 SVT blowing through your knees and taking out a few fillings in the audience.
Waffle over.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Monckyman

[alistair Sutcliffe]

+1
It's as easy to take a sub as it is to take a bass cab. Using a pa with subs means you can get a proper thump from the kick drum, you can use much smaller tops, and the whole band just sounds 'fuller'. To my ears anyway.

[EBS_freak]

Big, loud powerful backlines should be a thing of the past. The PA should be doing all the work. Convince your guitarist to get a small amp instead of a Marshall full stack. DI your bass amp. Run low on stage volumes. Mix your sound at the PA. Job done.

Trouble is because bands have ownership issues of PAs, they invest in their own gear and not the PA...

And everybody likes a big rig.