Am I just a thick bass thumper?

[Conan]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1373018663' post='2132792']
If it takes longer the engineer is an idiot.
Which is what you think anyway so...

[/quote]

Ah. Now I understand your earlier post a bit better.

Don't take it personally man - I'm sure you are a great engineer and that bands love to work with you, but many of us have experiences that suggest that you are unusual in that respect!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1373020083' post='2132817']
For those who are fussy and have their own sound, I'm not sure how a guy you've never met and has never heard you before is going to get your sound to your satisfaction, unless you have a radio lead and are stood next to him at the desk directing operations for however long it takes.
[/quote]

Its easy - I give them a post DI and they take it and make it louder, I presume they have the wherewithal to manage a volume knob.

[Low End Bee]

I can't remember the last non DI gig I did. So I go straight out the back of the amp with the eq switch set to post and treat whoevers doing the sound as a human being. Seems to work mostly.

[Monckyman]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1373019975' post='2132815']


No I've only done a couple of such things but in both cases the conversation with the engineer was "hey, you got a DI on your amp" "yes" "cheers". It beats me why anyone would prefer to take a raw instrument feed that needs EQing and compressing when they can just take the amp feed. Whatever next, are they going to take a midi out from the keyboard because they want them to all sound the same - it just defies all logic.
[/quote]
No professional engineer wants to rely on your amp and cable if he doesn't have to.
No professional engineer wants your cab EQ through his rig also.
You may be using a 2x10 and he has a 20k rig.
A nice analogy would be you EQing your amp for your 2x10 then using that amp with a 4x12 and leaving the EQ the same.
It would almost certainly not suit the different cab.
Well that's what the house engineer faces when you walk in to a club and insist on "your sound".
Get over it, your sound is probably like a million others anyway


>>>>>>>>>>>runs

[Monckyman]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1373022864' post='2132855']


Ah. Now I understand your earlier post a bit better.

Don't take it personally man - I'm sure you are a great engineer and that bands love to work with you, but many of us have experiences that suggest that you are unusual in that respect!
[/quote]

I was crap when I was younger and didn't know my arse from my EQ.
I'm not taking this personally but I do find it annoying when people slag engineers off without trying to understand what the engineer is up to.
Basically, if you aren't paying your own guy, you can't expect anything other than the most basic of sounds.

[skej21]

I don't really care what the FOH sounds like. I get my tone on stage which means I'm happy and play well because of it. The FOH sound might need certain elements adding/removing due to reasons with the venue or the other instruments etc and its the engineer's job to do that, not mine. I use a DI with a post/pre button, so if they want to hear 'my tone' as a reference, I can do that with ease and if not, they can do what they need to with the dry signal. I'm not a tone diva. I haven't got the time or energy for it lol.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1373039318' post='2133126']
No professional engineer wants to rely on your amp and cable if he doesn't have to.
No professional engineer wants your cab EQ through his rig also.
You may be using a 2x10 and he has a 20k rig.
A nice analogy would be you EQing your amp for your 2x10 then using that amp with a 4x12 and leaving the EQ the same.
It would almost certainly not suit the different cab.
Well that's what the house engineer faces when you walk in to a club and insist on "your sound".
Get over it, your sound is probably like a million others anyway


>>>>>>>>>>>runs

[/quote]

That`s a very good point made there Dave - even swapping your amp from your own 2x10 to a different make of 2x10 will more than likely change the sound a fair bit.

To be honest, the best FOH sounds I`ve heard recently have been a Precision, into a DI box to FOH, then connected to an amp for on-stage monitoring. I set the amp to how I wanted it, and on-stage was fine. Out front, the bass sounded great. Now of course if the band has 2 basses with vastly different sounds then this approach will need tweaking, but for a one-bass band - as most are - it worked well (our 2nd bassist couldn`t make the gig in question).

[mcnach]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1373010493' post='2132660']
Over the last few years I've come to the conclusion that at the level the majority of us play at on here most of the time it really doesn't matter what you sound like out front for the average audience member. The important things are that the overall volume level of the band is not too loud (or too quiet) and that the vocals can be heard. Everything after that is just icing in the cake. Its far better to put on a show and to be entertaining because that's what the audience can relate to, and what will bring the compliments and merchandise sales after the gig. Unfortunately having a great bass sound (or not) will make little difference.

If you are really serious about having exactly the sound that your band wants FoH (and remember it's the whole band sound that is important not the individual instruments) then get your own sound engineer who is knows what they are doing and can prove it to the house engineer in seconds. Also stop playing multi-band gigs with sub 30 minute change over times. Sometimes though it easier to have a moan then to actually do anything about it.
[/quote]


amen!

[wateroftyne]

I face 'generic zero-definition bass tone' syndrome quite often. I try not to stress about it these days, 'cos if the engineer wants to mix the band from the drums up there's nowt you can do about it.

I generally insist on a mic or post-DI which I think helps.

Every now and then we get someone who knows what mids are, and what flatwounds should sound like. I cherish those moments.

[Lfalex v1.1]

Got a friend you trust in the audience?
Got one of them new-fangled active basses?

You can use these assets to out-smart almost any intervening equipment and sound men...

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1373039318' post='2133126']
No professional engineer wants to rely on your amp and cable if he doesn't have to.
No professional engineer wants your cab EQ through his rig also.
You may be using a 2x10 and he has a 20k rig.
A nice analogy would be you EQing your amp for your 2x10 then using that amp with a 4x12 and leaving the EQ the same.
It would almost certainly not suit the different cab.
Well that's what the house engineer faces when you walk in to a club and insist on "your sound".
Get over it, your sound is probably like a million others anyway


>>>>>>>>>>>runs

[/quote]

So presumably the engineer doesn't want to rely on the lead coming out of my bass - is he going to insist on providing one for me ?. I guess he will insist that I play a without any active electronics in the bass itself and also ensure that my pickup mix knob is set to his approval and that I'm using an appropriate strings to ensure that they are perfectly flat sounding and check that I'm going to pluck the string at the approved number of inches from the bridge. I should probably just give him a lead sheet so he can get someone else with this mythical perfectly reliable and EQ neutral setup to play instead and I'll just mime.

No, the reality is that my amp post DI is far and way the best source of a usable signal for him to work with and I go out of my way to make sure that my "tone" is as EQ neutral as possible but I'll be damned if I'm going to let any sound get past the front of the stage that doesn't include the colour and grit that my amp adds which integral to the overall sound of the band.

[Monckyman]

Be damned then

[thisnameistaken]

I saw Ben Folds Five a few months back, there's only three of them, how did they manage to make the bass sound so bad? The mix was all cymbals and vocals and the bass was mostly an indistinct rumbly sound.

I did think 'At least it doesn't only happen to me'.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1373095706' post='2133600']
the bass was mostly an indistinct rumbly sound.
.
[/quote]
Goes back to the fashion of having the bass drum all clicky, something's got to fill the bottom end, seems arse about face to me, that should be the bass drums job

[Dad3353]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1373095706' post='2133600']...mostly an indistinct rumbly sound...[/quote]
[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1373097940' post='2133638']...that should be the bass drums job[/quote]

Ah..! So you've seen me playing, eh..?

[JTUK]

A live bass mix is not going to be really tight and defined and you will be in mush territory easily enough.
This is why you don't want to compound things and there is a reason why single coil basses
have favour as they can be thinner at source and retain tone character well.
You want a good clean signal without too much bass on it... you can dial it in later, but you
don't get rid of it so quickly...
Not for nothing are Fenders the bass of choice for so many. They do the job.

[mcnach]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1373060742' post='2133442']
I face 'generic zero-definition bass tone' syndrome quite often. I try not to stress about it these days, 'cos if the engineer wants to mix the band from the drums up there's nowt you can do about it.

I generally insist on a mic or post-DI which I think helps.

Every now and then we get someone who knows what mids are, and what flatwounds should sound like. I cherish those moments.
[/quote]


I was at Kelburn Festival this weekend (where I got to play with two bands ) and I saw quite a variety of bands. Some bands were awesome, and had really good bass players who played great basslines. At least I think so, because all too often they were an indistinguishable rumble and I had to use my imagination to fill in the gaps. Often, the "bass" actually came from the bass drum and you could just about get a hint of pitch definition if you focused hard enough. Grrrr. It nearly drove me mad with a couple of bands that clearly would sound amazing if the basslines were audible.

Why why why why?

Why?

[4 Strings]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1373325155' post='2136338']
At least I think so, because all too often they were an indistinguishable rumble and I had to use my imagination to fill in the gaps. Often, the "bass" actually came from the bass drum and you could just about get a hint of pitch definition if you focused hard enough. Grrrr.
[/quote]

Exactly, which is why I said I have an issue with the drums more than the bass. I friendly chat with the sound man works for me, I want the bass at the bottom and the kick drum above it. It's so important.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1373326111' post='2136351']
Exactly, which is why I said I have an issue with the drums more than the bass. I friendly chat with the sound man works for me, I want the bass at the bottom and the kick drum above it. It's so important.
[/quote]
I prefer it the other way on

[chris_b]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1373358831' post='2136528']
....I prefer it the other way on....
[/quote]

+1

That's the usual way.

If you're concentrating on the low mids (which is where the bass should be IMO) then the kick goes underneath.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1373359344' post='2136545']
+1

That's the usual way.

If you're concentrating on the low mids (which is where the bass should be IMO) then the kick goes underneath.
[/quote]

Not for Motown, soul etc. Depth charge bass drum sounds are the enemy.

Different for different music, if you're playing rock you'd want the depth charge but, normally, more middly bass in which case, yes, you'd swap.

The point is to avoid the sound man trying to mix both with the same frequencies and to think about where they should be placed. They are often eq'd in isolation so first a full satisfying kick drum sound, then a full, satisfying bass sound, then a full, satisfying keyboard sound etc all being added to the same, now very muddy area. Then he can't hear the bass drum so he turns it up.

For me, one of the keys to good mixing is to consider why I can't hear something and, usually, to turn something else down or to isolate frequencies to separate it out.

[xilddx]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1373363276' post='2136617']
Not for Motown, soul etc. Depth charge bass drum sounds are the enemy.

Different for different music, if you're playing rock you'd want the depth charge but, normally, more middly bass in which case, yes, you'd swap.

The point is to avoid the sound man trying to mix both with the same frequencies and to think about where they should be placed. They are often eq'd in isolation so first a full satisfying kick drum sound, then a full, satisfying bass sound, then a full, satisfying keyboard sound etc all being added to the same, now very muddy area. Then he can't hear the bass drum so he turns it up.

For me, one of the keys to good mixing is to consider why I can't hear something and, usually, to turn something else down or to isolate frequencies to separate it out.
[/quote]

Kick only varies in volume, bass varies in pitch too, kick should not obscure the bass with massive boomy muddy frequencies, and like you, I want my low notes to be emphasizing frequencies below the kick's main emphasis.

It does of course depend on the music and the venue, but I like kick to have some tightly defined low mids and some click. I want my bass to have some subs as well as top end definition, and the mids should not be similar to the kick. I'm sure 51m0n will have much to say about this and I'm probably wrong.

[TimR]

It really depends on how the kick is tuned.

Again it's the room that influences what frequencies have to be cut so you're usually limited in that respect. Outside gigs are different.

The soundman will have a bunch of default, always go to, settings that he knows will work with his gear in that type of room. He's no different to us knowing which frequencies to cut on our rigs for problem stages.

When I saw Rush at Birmingham last month I'm sure what Geddy wanted, what he could hear and what we could hear (depending where we were standing) were a thousand different bass sounds.

Once the strings and keys kicked in it was mush.

[wateroftyne]

At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man (which I am, I suppose), a lot of these issues could be solved straight away if the FOH was TURNED DOWN A BIT and the subs were turned down a bit more still.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1373369513' post='2136695']
At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man (which I am, I suppose), a lot of these issues could be solved straight away if the FOH was TURNED DOWN A BIT and the subs were turned down a bit more still.
[/quote]

Usually its the backline that needs to go down.

Mind you, that starts me on another soapbox, the soundman control thing where he wants the backline to be so anaemically and uninspiringly quiet so he has full control of everything with a nice big margin. I have to remind him that he has a sound reinforcement system which reinforces the sound of the band where it's needed. If he doesn't need bass through the foh, then fine, it doesn't HAVE to go through. (This is for smaller venues of course, the real ones that I'm likely to play most often.)