wateroftyne Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1373371729' post='2136755'] Usually its the backline that needs to go down. Mind you, that starts me on another soapbox, the soundman control thing where he wants the backline to be so anaemically and uninspiringly quiet so he has full control of everything with a nice big margin. I have to remind him that he has a sound reinforcement system which reinforces the sound of the band where it's needed. If he doesn't need bass through the foh, then fine, it doesn't HAVE to go through. (This is for smaller venues of course, the real ones that I'm likely to play most often.) [/quote] I can only comment on my own circumstances - most of the bands I play with have a very controlled on-stage volume. +1 to the rest of your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1373369278' post='2136689'] It really depends on how the kick is tuned. Again it's the room that influences what frequencies have to be cut so you're usually limited in that respect. Outside gigs are different. The soundman will have a bunch of default, always go to, settings that he knows will work with his gear in that type of room. He's no different to us knowing which frequencies to cut on our rigs for problem stages. When I saw Rush at Birmingham last month I'm sure what Geddy wanted, what he could hear and what we could hear (depending where we were standing) were a thousand different bass sounds. Once the strings and keys kicked in it was mush. [/quote] Drummers who can't tune their kits properly are a liability. Just like bassists who eq their rigs on their own without the band there or with music on. Some drummers tune their kits all flabby and loose cos it sounds cool, but like Stewart Copeland said once, put that in a band situation and it sounds like they're hitting a f***ing meat pie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1373325155' post='2136338'] I was at Kelburn Festival this weekend (where I got to play with two bands ) and I saw quite a variety of bands. Some bands were awesome, and had really good bass players who played great basslines. At least I think so, because all too often they were an indistinguishable rumble and I had to use my imagination to fill in the gaps. Often, the "bass" actually came from the bass drum and you could just about get a hint of pitch definition if you focused hard enough. Grrrr. It nearly drove me mad with a couple of bands that clearly would sound amazing if the basslines were audible. Why why why why? Why? [/quote] Probably because Kelburn pays peanuts and all the pro sound engineers are off somewhere where they'll get paid. I love Kelburn and have played there a couple of times but it's run on a shoestring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrismanbass Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Having skim read through this thread (sorry if this has been covered already) i figured i'd post this up here for you to gain some insight from the other side of the desk this is the process i go through when sound checking bass as an engineer first off i speak to the band about their general sound then i will ask each of the band members if there is anything specific i need to know about their sound. after this i'll explain what mic's/ di signal i'm using and why with the bass player generally its a pre eq di out of the head and if they're feeling really extravagant an RE20* on the bass cab although in the venue i work in its really not necessary after this and once i've sound checked drums i'll ask the bass player to play whilst i have nothing turned on in the house (this is the big mistake most engineers make) this way i've heard what his bass amp sounds like on its own and i have a fairly good idea of how its supposed to sound after this i'll turn the bass on in the house and start eq'ing my aim being to get as close to the sound original sound the bass player was making whilst doing this i'll be muting and unmuting the bass in the house to check that there is no difference in tone after this i'll move on to the other instruments (at this point i havent established whether the bass tone i'm using will work in the context of the band but at least i know what the bass player wants) when the whole band are playing i'll sort out the levels of the band and any general niggles and then check everybody's tone if they work then don't mess around with them its only if they don't then you start changing the sound as little as possible to get the desired effect (if the bass sounds thin then there isn't enough 75-125hz in your eq, if its not cutting enough then around 700hz to 1k is where you need to look if you want more of what i call clank i.e string and fret noise its around 2.5khz**) and then in theory you should have a sound which you and the bass player can live with. imo the main points to think of are this 1. its the bass players sound not yours of course you have to mould it a bit but they know the band better than you 2. communication is key and giving the feeling that you are both pulling in the same direction 3.knowing what frequencies do what is key as it makes life very simple some context of course i'm speaking from my own experience and luckily i'm spoilt at the venue i work at i have all the toys to play with and this makes my life very easy (digital desk, very dead room, mic cabinet stocked with expensive mic's) however this process works just as well in a venue with a crappy behringer desk and knackered pa it also assumes that i have the correct amount of time to do all this notes *[url="http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=91"]http://www.electrovo...oduct.php?id=91[/url] (electrovoice RE20) ** [url="http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm"]http://www.independe...ain_display.htm[/url] (chart which is useful for knowing what frequencies instruments produce) Edited July 9, 2013 by Chrismanbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 [quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1373039318' post='2133126'] No professional engineer wants to rely on your amp and cable if he doesn't have to. No professional engineer wants your cab EQ through his rig also. You may be using a 2x10 and he has a 20k rig. A nice analogy would be you EQing your amp for your 2x10 then using that amp with a 4x12 and leaving the EQ the same. It would almost certainly not suit the different cab. Well that's what the house engineer faces when you walk in to a club and insist on "your sound". Get over it, your sound is probably like a million others anyway >>>>>>>>>>>runs [/quote] I actually agree with this, I find the bands with [i]their[/i] sound have a sh*t sound and the bands that give a clean Di to the desk and keep their amp fairly low on stage get the best sound, it might not be the sound they have tailored in the rehersal room but a good sound is better than a sh*t sound everyday. Stingray-fairly flat EQ maybe a bit of extra bass-good quality lead into either a DI box or taken from my good quality amp's DI pre EQ and leave them to it IMO/E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 [quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1373039318' post='2133126'] No professional engineer wants to rely on your amp and cable if he doesn't have to. No professional engineer wants your cab EQ through his rig also. You may be using a 2x10 and he has a 20k rig. A nice analogy would be you EQing your amp for your 2x10 then using that amp with a 4x12 and leaving the EQ the same. It would almost certainly not suit the different cab. Well that's what the house engineer faces when you walk in to a club and insist on "your sound". Get over it, your sound is probably like a million others anyway >>>>>>>>>>>runs [/quote] I'm sorry but sounds to me like complete bollocks. PA engineers are quite happy to mic up the guitarist(s) amp(s) that are fed by no end of dubious quality leads and through a whole load of noisy pedals. What happens when the bass guitarists changes to another bass (fretless/fretted, one with a different number of strings, spare because they've broken a string)? At your average small gig level (which I assume you are talking about) no bass player is likely to have an identical sounding spare and if they deliberately change to another bass it will be because of the change in tone that they want. If I was in a band where all the bass parts were produced by synthesisers/samplers it is highly likely that every song would have a different bass sound. What are you going to do then? And while modern cabs do tend to have a "voice" they are pretty much full range these days. I have two sets of speakers that I use depending on the size of the stage I'll be playing. They are entirely different configurations, but with a slight tweak to the tweeter levels they end up sounding near enough identical when run from my amp. Besides it doesn't take much to listen to the bass rig on stage and tweak the DI EQ on the PA to compensate for any colouration the cabs are producing. IMO the things you are coming up with are 50 years out of date lazy thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1373060742' post='2133442'] I face 'generic zero-definition bass tone' syndrome quite often. I try not to stress about it these days, 'cos if the engineer wants to mix the band from the drums up there's nowt you can do about it. I generally insist on a mic or post-DI which I think helps. Every now and then we get someone who knows what mids are, and what flatwounds should sound like. I cherish those moments. [/quote] The reason why I don't use flatwounds live is because engineers don't know how to EQ them and you end up sounding woollier than a very woolly thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameltoe Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I'm completely used to this situation, and it is annoying especially if you're like most of the bassists on here that spend years playing all sorts of gear until you find the sound that works for you. You then spend thousands on actually buying the stuff, hours of rehearsals and gigs to get the EQ sounding sweet in a band situation- warm, but not muffled, attack, but not too sharp, good note definition, but not too zingy- strings at that 'sweet spot' of sounding played in but not dead- finally the big moment comes and you get to play through a real PA, on a real stage, with all the time, effort and money you have spent on your sound ready to be unleashed to the world..... And what happens? The soundman points at a little blue box, and asks you to plug your bass into that Behringer DI box, then asks you to play something for around 10 seconds, and you're done. All the while your guitarist, with his cheap pickups, ridiculous tone-sucking overdrive pedals, and solid-state laney hardcore amp, gets a 57beta meticulously positioned, and at least 5 minutes of sound check time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 This is where you talk to the sound guy and let him know what you want. If you don't he'll quite understandably think you'll be happy to accept his 'expert' default bass settings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r16ktx Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 My 2p... Most audiences are deaf and or drunk and only 'hear' the guitar and vocals, so fretting about a 'sound' well... Not much to add really but there is only one person who needs to hear your sound and that's you, and of course: bass should be felt and not heard :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 [quote name='r16ktx' timestamp='1373715492' post='2140878'] My 2p... Most audiences are deaf and or drunk and only 'hear' the guitar and vocals, [/quote] Most of mine aren't. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cameltoe Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 To quote our previous drummer, who is a sound engineer as a profession, "No one's listening" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 If "no one's listening" then it's your job to make them listen. You have to be positive. You've got to impress and get them on your side. IMO, too many bands blame the audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1373716422' post='2140899'] If "no one's listening" then it's your job to make them listen. You have to be positive. You've got to impress and get them on your side. IMO, too many bands blame the audience. [/quote] It's extremely subjective. Do the people who are listening know what they're listening for? I played a couple of hours in a church last Sunday for a jazz concert. People were sitting and watching and listening. I didn't have to make them. I played at a BBQ the night before 60s/70s pop, people had come to eat, chat, maybe dance. Most people spread out around the field and chatted. I played in a power trio, blues rock in a pub a week before people had come to drink and listen. I don't think in any of those scenarios anyone thought the bass player needs a bit more in the 5kHz region... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r16ktx Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1373715610' post='2140883'] Most of mine aren't. Just sayin'. [/quote] No probs - I'm not blaming anyone, it's just I think musicians of all flavours get too hung up on having their 'sound' I'm just happy with a _band_ that isn't drunk & deaf, an audience is just a bonus :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 [quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1373645665' post='2140177'] I'm completely used to this situation, and it is annoying especially if you're like most of the bassists on here that spend years playing all sorts of gear until you find the sound that works for you. You then spend thousands on actually buying the stuff, hours of rehearsals and gigs to get the EQ sounding sweet in a band situation- warm, but not muffled, attack, but not too sharp, good note definition, but not too zingy- strings at that 'sweet spot' of sounding played in but not dead- finally the big moment comes and you get to play through a real PA, on a real stage, with all the time, effort and money you have spent on your sound ready to be unleashed to the world..... And what happens? The soundman points at a little blue box, and asks you to plug your bass into that Behringer DI box, then asks you to play something for around 10 seconds, and you're done. All the while your guitarist, with his cheap pickups, ridiculous tone-sucking overdrive pedals, and solid-state laney hardcore amp, gets a 57beta meticulously positioned, and at least 5 minutes of sound check time. [/quote] You're not the first person on this thread to say the same, so I'm not singling you out - this is just my perspective as an engineer on the idea that we only give bass a few seconds of time and attention. When I'm mixing a band the reason I only ask the bass player to play in isolation for a short period is because there's absolutely no point trying to tweak the tone beyond the basics without doing it in context. The drums get longer because of all the normally quiet rings and buzzes that suddenly become mega loud when miked and because there are anything up to a dozen open mics involved. The guitars get long enough to run me through the range of sounds they'll be using so I know they're properly balanced on stage and my gain structure can accommodate the quietest/loudest tones. No sound source gets much more than basic shelving applied (or really obvious problems addressed) without hearing how it fits with the mix. Saying engineers neglect bass tone because "your" soundcheck is ten seconds of solo bass playing is just showing an ignorance of what is required to make the whole band sound great together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I had an interesting experience with the sound man last night. He walked right up to me and said, "Do you have a DI?" I said, "Yes". He said, "Ok", and handed me a lead. After a 10 second blast from me, all was sorted. Good ears, great sound, great mix, no probs. How come I always get the good guys? His name is Mark, in Dorchester. If you know him, say thanks again from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarTart Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 I do mostly amateur musical work these days with a pit band. Mostly in one of six local theatres and I've got to know the engineers fairly well. I use a Variax bass and Line 6 Studio 110 amp as a monitor. The DI from the amp carries the tone and compression settings to the desk and I just ask for a flat eq on my channel with the volume adjusted to mix with the band. This seems to work for me. Last year when we were doing "Buddy", I set up using the P bass model but played the first half with the upright bass model. In the interval, the engineer (who is a musician as well) came backstage and asked how I had got the double bass mic'd up! Most engineers appreciate being told politely what kit you've got and what you would like to hear FOH and will do their best to accommodate you. Myk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 [quote name='GuitarTart' timestamp='1373803480' post='2141731'] Most engineers appreciate being told politely what kit you've got and what you would like to hear FOH and will do their best to accommodate you. [/quote] This is my experience too, more important than the gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Daveo Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I always have a chat with the soundman about what im after THANK HIM and get on with it. If something bothers me after the first song i will ask if it can be altered ...no biggy.No one is perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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