What's the real reason you want amps & cabs on stage? Rather than a POD/SansAmp etc.

[xilddx]

Let's get this bit out the way first, ok? Digital modeling - Boss GT10B, POD XT/X3, and active DI's like SansAmp, Hartke VXL, etc, if used properly, can and do sound indistinguishable from an amp and cab rig in your FoH sound. You need to take this for granted if you don't believe me. I'll go one further and say the same is true for studio recordings but that's another story.

The only advantage of using and amp and cab that I can work out from what people say on here is that it can make you trousers flap on stage, which to me is not a sensible reason at all. Most monitors are capable of pumping out some good bass for your reference.

Quality digi modeling/effects units and active DIs offer (over amp and cab rigs) huge versatility and portability, consistent sound quality with most stage and room characteristics, reliability, simplicity of deployment, massive cost savings, less prone to damage, don't need to keep changing them in your quest for TONE, geezers in other bands never ask to borrow them for their set, you can't stand a pint on them .. Need I go on?

It's beyond me why anyone would have the pain and worry of cab placement problems in auditoriums, needing gramma pads, transport issues, bad backs, lending them to other bands, very little versatility, easily damaged, buying and selling to find YOUR TONE, upsizing, downsizing, two rigs for different size gigs, getting them up and down narrow stairs ...

So why do you REALLY insist on having amps and cabs? Fear of digital sound being unpredictable or sounding crap? Need a big old rig behind you to feel safe? Ignorance of going direct? Need a massive bass sound on stage? Can't be bothered to f*** about learning how to programme patches? Nostalgia? Inertia? ...

I'm genuinely interested to know.

[JellyKnees]

The rig-less approach is probably fine if you are playing in a larger venue through a PA with decent stage monitors and you trust the sound engineer, or you are in a pro band playing with high quality in ear monitors or whatnot, but if you are playing down the old Cock and Pullet then you probably won't have such luxuries at your disposal...

I use some amp modelling and quite a lot of effects through my markbass/barefaced big one setup - its an exceptionally clean amp/cab combo so most of my 'tone' comes from the bass/effects etc, but ultimately I like to be able to control my onstage level and tweak the tone accordingly. Its also a ridiculously lightweight rig so moving it is a doddle tbh. Also I don't generally lend my gear out.

Its not a problem for what I do, although in principle I agree with you.

[Samashton12]

I've become more open minded with this question lately, with my guitarist being a sound engineer and him telling me how much DI makes his job easier..

Id say it gives me confidence in a way, I'd save for an amp for a while to be proud of it and have it behind me for everyone to hear and look at (and for gearheads to moan about how much i don't deserve such an amp ) but you're correct.. What's the point of buying an SVT and lugging it round everywhere as opposed to a DI box which sounds like an SVT..

Slowly leaning toward to the DI option, but it just doesn't seem as cool

I dont know

[Dave Vader]

reliable monitoring that I can point at my head and hear at every gig.
That's about it really, don't even need the modelling bit, I'd just take a DI box and a bass if I could rely on the main rig being loud enough.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1372945495' post='2131956']
The rig-less approach is probably fine if you are playing in a larger venue through a PA with decent stage monitors and you trust the sound engineer, or you are in a pro band playing with high quality in ear monitors or whatnot, but if you are playing down the old Cock and Pullet then you probably won't have such luxuries at your disposal...

I use some amp modelling and quite a lot of effects through my markbass/barefaced big one setup - its an exceptionally clean amp/cab combo so most of my 'tone' comes from the bass/effects etc, but ultimately I like to be able to control my onstage level and tweak the tone accordingly. Its also a ridiculously lightweight rig so moving it is a doddle tbh. Also I don't generally lend my gear out.

Its not a problem for what I do, although in principle I agree with you.
[/quote]

That's cool man, but I must add that most of the gigs I play are in small pub/bar type venues with small PAs and a couple of wedges as a minimum. It's very easy to find out what sort of PA a venue has before you get to the gig. I've never owned a bass rig, only ever the POD, and before that I have a few different active DIs. If there's a house bass amp I might use it for onstage reference and a bit of vibration, but that's just for fun and only with one particular band that has big pumping bass lines.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Samashton12' timestamp='1372945907' post='2131963']
I've become more open minded with this question lately, with my guitarist being a sound engineer and him telling me how much DI makes his job easier..

Id say it gives me confidence in a way, I'd save for an amp for a while to be proud of it and have it behind me for everyone to hear and look at (and for gearheads to moan about how much i don't deserve such an amp ) but you're correct.. What's the point of buying an SVT and lugging it round everywhere as opposed to a DI box which sounds like an SVT..

Slowly leaning toward to the DI option, but it just doesn't seem as cool

I dont know
[/quote]

I know what you mean about the 'cool' aspect. I loved Van Halen's set of walls of fake speaker cabs. But the fact is, big amps onstage is only old school cool nowadays. I really don't think the audience give a sh*t about seeing stacks on stage unless it's a deliberate part of a set.

[Wil]

But Nige, you gig in well kitted out venues. I can count the number of times I've had decent monitors at a gig in the South West on one hand.

[JTUK]

Amp modelling is ok but as flawed as any other thinking.
It is an AWFL lot of work to refine something to suit...otherwise you are taking a complicated feed and hoping for the best one size fits all, and especially if you use a few effects.

It really depends on your monitoring though, at the end of the day.
If you get decent signals back and to the rest of the band, then it can work.
if you don't, or have less than 4 mixes.. you are asking for trouble.
Plus you need more time to get the mon mix right..so for these multl bills with a rushed turnround, I wouldn't touch it.

Also, it depends how much playing the band actually does... if you push the boat out a few times..you will need the other guys to be able to get on board...

[deanovw]

I play in two bands and with both bands there is a vocal only PA with one tiny vocal monitor. The pubs we play in do not supply any equipment.

Therefore I need an amp and a cab for the out front sound and for personal monitoring. There is no other option.

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372946119' post='2131974']
I know what you mean about the 'cool' aspect. I loved Van Halen's set of walls of fake speaker cabs. But the fact is, big amps onstage is only old school cool nowadays. I really don't think the audience give a sh*t about seeing stacks on stage unless it's a deliberate part of a set.
[/quote]

or if theyre disguised as friggin washing machines or something stoooopid

im inclined to agree Nige for gigs with a big rig out front for multiband afternoons and decent monitoring the stage stuff is just cosmetic - we did a local gig recently - JTUK was there and said FOH sounded good - onstage monitoring was great in fact the stage monitoring was so good i could not actually hear my 410 at all so i was essentially using my head as a oversized DI box!

Edited July 4, 2013 by steve-bbb

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 18, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[LiamPodmore]

If i'm playing a bigger gig where i know everything will be through the PA, i'm more than happy just turning up with my bass and my pedalboard. Unfortunately when we're at pub gigs the PA can't handle it (Though that may change when we get back together), so i have to use an amp. I prefer not having one, it gives me more room to run around and less things to break.

Liam

[51m0n]

I've yet to hear a set of monitors in the Dog and Duck or even on a reasonable PA that could properly project bass, or was properly set up for more than two monitor mixes. I played in a band with a 5.5K rig of their own for a while, with pretty extensive monitors by large pub/small hall standards, the owner of the PA ran it as a hire firm to, and knows his beans, the monitors were typical onstage wedges (5 or 6 of them IIRC), and they were so rubbish at bass you couldnt put more than a lick of kick through them. Enough bass fo rme to be happy wasnt achievable at all, they just farted out.

Also his (small) desk didnt (need to) support more than 2 aux monitor mixes, so I would have been stuck with the bv mix or the main vocal mix, meither of which really needed to be wasting the monitor power handling with a dump of bass at all.

So in these cases (we were playing 300 to 400 capacity venues regualrly) the only recourse was a good rig. Glad I had one, the band could get pretty loud (drums, guitar, bass, B3 hammond with leslie on full chat, vocals and harmonica and bvs) and the bass quite often didnt go through the PA for one reason or another.

[Dad3353]

This is much the same 'argument' as that of the singer, turning up with only his mic. If the rest of the gear is provided, and up to the situation, then that's fine, but if not, he/she's in trouble with only that equipment. The PA becomes the equivalent of the bass rig, in the mode that you suggest.
As the previus posters, I would agree that it's at least 'do-able', if not entirely recommended, for all the reasons you've stated, if the PA (FOH and stage...) is adequate. In the kind of situations we normally play in, this is never the case, or, at least, should not be relied upon.
A second point, and not negligeable for some, is the 'phaffing about' that seems inherent with Pods and such. A 'real life' case would be our band. Abel has a mega Mesa stack and a couple of sophisticated boards/racks (Triaxis, G-Force, VG-88 and more...), gets great sounds, and often spends more than 10 minutes of rehearsal time phrigging about to get such-and-such a reverb, or 'crunch' (whatever that is..!) or slap-back tempo just right.
Tom has a GT-6b, which he used for a while, with patches for Muse, others for the Floyd... After a while he decided to ditch the pedalboard and just plug straight into the Hiwatt and that's it. We seldom (read: never...) have to wait around for Tom to be ready. His 'sound' is magnificent, for all of our repertoire (Muse, Floyd and all...). He can't be @rsed to mess about with any sh*t. He just wants to play bass. Different folks have different approaches.
My excuse for keeping my rigs..? Simple..! I'm old..!

Edited July 4, 2013 by Dad3353

[bassace]

I went to see Mark Knopfler at LG a few weeks ago. They're touring Europe at the moment with a massive crew and the band fly between gigs by private jet. So resources are not in short supply; yet there's a lot of backline on stage. Go figure.

For myself, it's a rare luxury ever to have a PA feed except on a big festival stage.

[AlanJ]

I agree in principle too. I would definitely run direct into the desk more often if there was decent monitoring on stage, and I was confident the sound engineer would put enough through the monitor for me.

Generally my amp is just dedicated foldback, so having the general purpose foldback do the job instead is a lot less hassle.

However, I do find myself playing with plenty of acoustic instruments, and I find that sometimes having the bass sound localised to me in the same way as the acoustic instruments sound is localised to them can actually help in that ensemble context. No, it makes no difference to what the audience hear with regard to the sound mix, but it can make a difference to the way the musicians play together.

But fundamentally, I'm up for anything that means I don't have to carry as much around!

Alan.

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372945953' post='2131967']
That's cool man, but I must add that most of the gigs I play are in small pub/bar type venues with small PAs and a couple of wedges as a minimum. It's very easy to find out what sort of PA a venue has before you get to the gig.[b] I've never owned a bass rig, only ever the POD[/b], and before that I have a few different active DIs. If there's a house bass amp I might use it for onstage reference and a bit of vibration, but that's just for fun and only with one particular band that has big pumping bass lines.
[/quote]

Hang on a minute before we go too far with this thread, we've been here before with your funny ideas....

Have you asked what Jake thinks?

[tayste_2000]

Largely the assumption that there is going to be a decent PA there, hell a PA.

I have in the past done IEM only gigs, as long as you've got In Ear Monitors you can bring just a DI box, because the risk to yourself not being able to hear yourself is reduced and then you can argue like many young musicians do, well this is all my parents could buy me for Christmas, it's your job to make it louder

Its certainly something I've considered in the past, you can get some seriously killer tones out of the POD

[miles'tone]

For me personally I used my kickback combo pointing up at our drummer as our monitor just so me and him could lock in (7 piece band with fiddles and flute and a trumpet plus the usual used to get pretty noisy up there).
I have gigged with just my Sansamp before ok with a three-piece.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1372947302' post='2131997']
Hang on a minute before we go too far with this thread, we've been here before with your funny ideas....[/quote]

Shhhh..! It's no good, we've tried that. He just won't take his tablets. Just bear with him, it'll pass. Jake will sort 'im out proper, like...
Sad, though. So young...

Edited July 4, 2013 by Dad3353

[SpaceChick]

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1372946315' post='2131978']
But Nige, you gig in well kitted out venues. I can count the number of times I've had decent monitors at a gig in the South West on one hand.
[/quote]

This!

I trust my kit, its decent stuff.

Would much rather plug my trusty GT10b into something that didnt give me a work out every time I'd need to move it and require a van to transport it though if I'm honest

[krysh]

on the most small venues and pubs I played the monitoring was complete crap. so I rely on my small and light 1X12" rig for monitoring.
as with modelling the only "modeling"-amp that would suit my taste in soundquality would be a kemper but I never tried one live.
the soundquality to my ears is why I have a custom guitar amp built and have only very rare or custom gear.
for bass a DI would and did work for me well a few times but for guitar I couldn't stand any modeler I tried until I heard the kemper- - but still for me nothing beats a real tube amp for "my" sound.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1372946332' post='2131979']
Amp modelling is ok but as flawed as any other thinking.
It is an AWFL lot of work to refine something to suit...otherwise you are taking a complicated feed and hoping for the best one size fits all, and especially if you use a few effects.

It really depends on your monitoring though, at the end of the day.
If you get decent signals back and to the rest of the band, then it can work.
if you don't, or have less than 4 mixes.. you are asking for trouble.
[b]Plus you need more time to get the mon mix right..so for these multl bills with a rushed turnround, I wouldn't touch it.[/b]

Also, it depends how much playing the band actually does... if you push the boat out a few times..you will need the other guys to be able to get on board...
[/quote]

Not IME, not at all.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1372947042' post='2131991']
This is much the same 'argument' as that of the singer, turning up with only his mic. If the rest of the gear is provided, and up to the situation, then that's fine, but if not, he/she's in trouble with only that equipment. The PA becomes the equivalent of the bass rig, in the mode that you suggest.
As the previus posters, I would agree that it's at least 'do-able', if not entirely recommended, for all the reasons you've stated, if the PA (FOH and stage...) is adequate. In the kind of situations we normally play in, this is never the case, or, at least, should not be relied upon.
[b]A second point, and not negligeable for some, is the 'phaffing about' that seems inherent with Pods and such. A 'real life' case would be our band.[/b] Abel has a mega Mesa stack and a couple of sophisticated boards/racks (Triaxis, G-Force, VG-88 and more...), gets great sounds, and often spends more than 10 minutes of rehearsal time phrigging about to get such-and-such a reverb, or 'crunch' (whatever that is..!) or slap-back tempo just right.
Tom has a GT-6b, which he used for a while, with patches for Muse, others for the Floyd... After a while he decided to ditch the pedalboard and just plug straight into the Hiwatt and that's it. We seldom (read: never...) have to wait around for Tom to be ready. His 'sound' is magnificent, for all of our repertoire (Muse, Floyd and all...). He can't be @rsed to mess about with any sh*t. He just wants to play bass. Different folks have different approaches.
My excuse for keeping my rigs..? Simple..! I'm old..!
[/quote]

No faff for me, I plug in an XLR to the desk, plug my bass in and we're off. Sometimes we only get time for a line check and it's still totally cool. I know the POD well enough to tweak patches on the fly in less than ten seconds. Setting up an amp and cab would take much more time, no?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372948144' post='2132025']
No faff for me, I plug in an XLR to the desk, plug my bass in and we're off. Sometimes we only get time for a line check and it's still totally cool. I know the POD well enough to tweak patches on the fly in less than ten seconds. Setting up an amp and cab would take much more time, no?
[/quote]

No, Nigel, that's exactly the point. I'm not talking about the 'stage' time, but the time spent beforehand setting up the pedal board presets and all. Our Tom has zero presets, in rehearsal as on stage. He plugs in, turns up the 'pre' to 12 o'clock, and 'Master' to as required for volume. End of. He doesn't (and doesn't want or need to...) programme anything. He did that with the GT-6b, and decided (rightly, in my view, too...) that it wasn't adding anything that justified the messing around. Plug the bass in and play. The sound will be fine (with good gear, of course...) The rest is in his fingers...
To each his own, naturally, but you did ask, and seem surprised that some have a different outlook or experience. Keep on Poding, no problem, but 'old school' is where it's at for us.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Dad3353